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Resign?

Re-sign him at a price over $14 mill. He does a lot for the team
20 (14.6%)
Too much money. The Limited offense isn't worth this much
117 (85.4%)

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Author Topic: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]  (Read 51010 times)

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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1110 on: July 20, 2018, 11:01:52 AM »

Offline The_Truth

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I'm glad he got paid. Marcus Smart is our best defensive player. Now watch him win us a Playoff series. Some people just like to complain.

Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1111 on: July 20, 2018, 11:31:07 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Wonder what offers Smart had to have had available that Ainge decided to pay Smart $13 mill per AAV? Hope Danny didn't bid against himself but if he thinks thats a fair contract then so be it.


He paid fair value to lock up Smart long term instead of losing him as an unrestricted FA next summer. Smart had no other reasonable offers this summer, but in next summer's market he would likely get significantly more than what we just gave him.

Smart is totally worth it, a unique player who is the backbone of our team.

See, I mostly disagree. With this current contract, we are talking about giving him the equivalent of a $46M/3yr contract next off-season (if he had taken the QO this summer). Unless Smart makes epic improvements in any form of shooting the ball,  I would be surprised to see him get a greater than $15M/yr contract in UFA.

As I said earlier, the Cs are clearly banking on major improvement from Smart - which I suppose is possible - but it isn't like he has the growth trajectory of a Brown/Tatum like player.

While you’ve got the numbers correct, I think your assessment of what Smart could get is off.  The last time we entered a summer with tons of teams having cap room to burn, we saw all sorts of role players like or inferior to Smart get contracts in the $16-20 million per year range for 3-4 years (Evan Turner, Ryan Anderson, Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, Luol Deng, Allen Crabbe, and so on).  The cap will be nearly 20% higher next year compared to two summers ago.  I personally think Smart’s low-end, barring injury or complete regression, was $15 million per year, and $20 million AAV wouldn’t have surprised me.  The combination of restricted free agency and limited teams with cap room really suppressed his value this summer, and the Celtics got a bargain.

Hopefully the forums will be around so we can revisit this topic next July when the role players get paid.

I disagree with your reasoning. It was widely accepted during the free agency period of 2016 that role-players were being given enormous contracts due to the projected cap increase of the next season and in subsequent seasons.  Unfortunately for the teams now hamstrung by contracts signed by the likes of Ryan Anderson, Evan Turner, and Timofey Mozgov the cap only went up the next season and then plateaued.   Any team that signed Smart to a similar contract would be equally boned.

If another team wanted to pay Smart 15-20 million to be a defensive role-player I say let them. I see no reason why he's worth more than his rookie contract when he hasn't developed at all as a player (sorry but there's absolutely no statistical evidence that points to his improvement).   

I don’t think you understand how much cap space some teams have lined up next summer.  There are 5 teams that look like they’ll have around $55 million of cap space or more, another 4 that will exceed $40 million, and another 4 that will exceed $20 million.  These numbers even take into account the cap holds of some players that teams may desire to retain (Porzingis, Turner, etc), as well as future draft picks. The cap space will be plentiful, and as the cap projects to increase by $14 million over the next two years, not taking into account any additional revenues that could be earned from legalized gambling, it will be a very good year for players who fall between the MLE tier and the star player tier. 
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1112 on: July 20, 2018, 11:38:58 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Wonder what offers Smart had to have had available that Ainge decided to pay Smart $13 mill per AAV? Hope Danny didn't bid against himself but if he thinks thats a fair contract then so be it.


He paid fair value to lock up Smart long term instead of losing him as an unrestricted FA next summer. Smart had no other reasonable offers this summer, but in next summer's market he would likely get significantly more than what we just gave him.

Smart is totally worth it, a unique player who is the backbone of our team.

See, I mostly disagree. With this current contract, we are talking about giving him the equivalent of a $46M/3yr contract next off-season (if he had taken the QO this summer). Unless Smart makes epic improvements in any form of shooting the ball,  I would be surprised to see him get a greater than $15M/yr contract in UFA.

As I said earlier, the Cs are clearly banking on major improvement from Smart - which I suppose is possible - but it isn't like he has the growth trajectory of a Brown/Tatum like player.

While you’ve got the numbers correct, I think your assessment of what Smart could get is off.  The last time we entered a summer with tons of teams having cap room to burn, we saw all sorts of role players like or inferior to Smart get contracts in the $16-20 million per year range for 3-4 years (Evan Turner, Ryan Anderson, Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, Luol Deng, Allen Crabbe, and so on).  The cap will be nearly 20% higher next year compared to two summers ago.  I personally think Smart’s low-end, barring injury or complete regression, was $15 million per year, and $20 million AAV wouldn’t have surprised me.  The combination of restricted free agency and limited teams with cap room really suppressed his value this summer, and the Celtics got a bargain.

Hopefully the forums will be around so we can revisit this topic next July when the role players get paid.

I disagree with your reasoning. It was widely accepted during the free agency period of 2016 that role-players were being given enormous contracts due to the projected cap increase of the next season and in subsequent seasons.  Unfortunately for the teams now hamstrung by contracts signed by the likes of Ryan Anderson, Evan Turner, and Timofey Mozgov the cap only went up the next season and then plateaued.   Any team that signed Smart to a similar contract would be equally boned.

If another team wanted to pay Smart 15-20 million to be a defensive role-player I say let them. I see no reason why he's worth more than his rookie contract when he hasn't developed at all as a player (sorry but there's absolutely no statistical evidence that points to his improvement).   

I don’t think you understand how much cap space some teams have lined up next summer.  There are 5 teams that look like they’ll have around $55 million of cap space or more, another 4 that will exceed $40 million, and another 4 that will exceed $20 million.  These numbers even take into account the cap holds of some players that teams may desire to retain (Porzingis, Turner, etc), as well as future draft picks. The cap space will be plentiful, and as the cap projects to increase by $14 million over the next two years, not taking into account any additional revenues that could be earned from legalized gambling, it will be a very good year for players who fall between the MLE tier and the star player tier.

Yep. It  might be different if NBA owners had any history of financial restraint whatsoever. However, history tells us that teams with space that miss out on premium free agents will simply over spend it on the second and third tier free agents.


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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1113 on: July 20, 2018, 12:43:58 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Wonder what offers Smart had to have had available that Ainge decided to pay Smart $13 mill per AAV? Hope Danny didn't bid against himself but if he thinks thats a fair contract then so be it.


He paid fair value to lock up Smart long term instead of losing him as an unrestricted FA next summer. Smart had no other reasonable offers this summer, but in next summer's market he would likely get significantly more than what we just gave him.

Smart is totally worth it, a unique player who is the backbone of our team.

See, I mostly disagree. With this current contract, we are talking about giving him the equivalent of a $46M/3yr contract next off-season (if he had taken the QO this summer). Unless Smart makes epic improvements in any form of shooting the ball,  I would be surprised to see him get a greater than $15M/yr contract in UFA.

As I said earlier, the Cs are clearly banking on major improvement from Smart - which I suppose is possible - but it isn't like he has the growth trajectory of a Brown/Tatum like player.

While you’ve got the numbers correct, I think your assessment of what Smart could get is off.  The last time we entered a summer with tons of teams having cap room to burn, we saw all sorts of role players like or inferior to Smart get contracts in the $16-20 million per year range for 3-4 years (Evan Turner, Ryan Anderson, Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, Luol Deng, Allen Crabbe, and so on).  The cap will be nearly 20% higher next year compared to two summers ago.  I personally think Smart’s low-end, barring injury or complete regression, was $15 million per year, and $20 million AAV wouldn’t have surprised me.  The combination of restricted free agency and limited teams with cap room really suppressed his value this summer, and the Celtics got a bargain.

Hopefully the forums will be around so we can revisit this topic next July when the role players get paid.

I disagree with your reasoning. It was widely accepted during the free agency period of 2016 that role-players were being given enormous contracts due to the projected cap increase of the next season and in subsequent seasons.  Unfortunately for the teams now hamstrung by contracts signed by the likes of Ryan Anderson, Evan Turner, and Timofey Mozgov the cap only went up the next season and then plateaued.   Any team that signed Smart to a similar contract would be equally boned.

If another team wanted to pay Smart 15-20 million to be a defensive role-player I say let them. I see no reason why he's worth more than his rookie contract when he hasn't developed at all as a player (sorry but there's absolutely no statistical evidence that points to his improvement).   

I don’t think you understand how much cap space some teams have lined up next summer.  There are 5 teams that look like they’ll have around $55 million of cap space or more, another 4 that will exceed $40 million, and another 4 that will exceed $20 million.  These numbers even take into account the cap holds of some players that teams may desire to retain (Porzingis, Turner, etc), as well as future draft picks. The cap space will be plentiful, and as the cap projects to increase by $14 million over the next two years, not taking into account any additional revenues that could be earned from legalized gambling, it will be a very good year for players who fall between the MLE tier and the star player tier.

Two questions...

1.  Where are you getting this salary cap projection from?  I have seen that the NBA is reporting the salary cap will increase by less than 2 million next season and then another 7 million the season after that.

2.  Do you think those teams are jockeying to have that cap space available to sign Marcus Smart?  If so... He'll be paid close to what Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving are currently making... Which is - again - fine with me as long as another team has hamstrung itself by grossly overpaying for him and it's not the Celtics. 

12 million next year for Smart isn't the worst thing in the world, but that's also 6 million more than DeMarcus Cousins will be making when he's starting for the Warriors in the playoffs next season.

Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1114 on: July 20, 2018, 01:05:26 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Wonder what offers Smart had to have had available that Ainge decided to pay Smart $13 mill per AAV? Hope Danny didn't bid against himself but if he thinks thats a fair contract then so be it.


He paid fair value to lock up Smart long term instead of losing him as an unrestricted FA next summer. Smart had no other reasonable offers this summer, but in next summer's market he would likely get significantly more than what we just gave him.

Smart is totally worth it, a unique player who is the backbone of our team.

See, I mostly disagree. With this current contract, we are talking about giving him the equivalent of a $46M/3yr contract next off-season (if he had taken the QO this summer). Unless Smart makes epic improvements in any form of shooting the ball,  I would be surprised to see him get a greater than $15M/yr contract in UFA.

As I said earlier, the Cs are clearly banking on major improvement from Smart - which I suppose is possible - but it isn't like he has the growth trajectory of a Brown/Tatum like player.

While you’ve got the numbers correct, I think your assessment of what Smart could get is off.  The last time we entered a summer with tons of teams having cap room to burn, we saw all sorts of role players like or inferior to Smart get contracts in the $16-20 million per year range for 3-4 years (Evan Turner, Ryan Anderson, Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, Luol Deng, Allen Crabbe, and so on).  The cap will be nearly 20% higher next year compared to two summers ago.  I personally think Smart’s low-end, barring injury or complete regression, was $15 million per year, and $20 million AAV wouldn’t have surprised me.  The combination of restricted free agency and limited teams with cap room really suppressed his value this summer, and the Celtics got a bargain.

Hopefully the forums will be around so we can revisit this topic next July when the role players get paid.

I disagree with your reasoning. It was widely accepted during the free agency period of 2016 that role-players were being given enormous contracts due to the projected cap increase of the next season and in subsequent seasons.  Unfortunately for the teams now hamstrung by contracts signed by the likes of Ryan Anderson, Evan Turner, and Timofey Mozgov the cap only went up the next season and then plateaued.   Any team that signed Smart to a similar contract would be equally boned.

If another team wanted to pay Smart 15-20 million to be a defensive role-player I say let them. I see no reason why he's worth more than his rookie contract when he hasn't developed at all as a player (sorry but there's absolutely no statistical evidence that points to his improvement).   

I don’t think you understand how much cap space some teams have lined up next summer.  There are 5 teams that look like they’ll have around $55 million of cap space or more, another 4 that will exceed $40 million, and another 4 that will exceed $20 million.  These numbers even take into account the cap holds of some players that teams may desire to retain (Porzingis, Turner, etc), as well as future draft picks. The cap space will be plentiful, and as the cap projects to increase by $14 million over the next two years, not taking into account any additional revenues that could be earned from legalized gambling, it will be a very good year for players who fall between the MLE tier and the star player tier.

Two questions...

1.  Where are you getting this salary cap projection from?  I have seen that the NBA is reporting the salary cap will increase by less than 2 million next season and then another 7 million the season after that.

2.  Do you think those teams are jockeying to have that cap space available to sign Marcus Smart?  If so... He'll be paid close to what Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving are currently making... Which is - again - fine with me as long as another team has hamstrung itself by grossly overpaying for him and it's not the Celtics. 

12 million next year for Smart isn't the worst thing in the world, but that's also 6 million more than DeMarcus Cousins will be making when he's starting for the Warriors in the playoffs next season.

Quote
Zach Lowe
@ZachLowe_NBA
Very important information buried in the NBA's salary cap memo sent to teams: projection for 2019-20 cap up to $109 million, and then $116 million for 2020-21. Cap is set at $101.9M for upcoming 2018-19 season.
9:42 PM · Jun 30, 2018
https://mobile.twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/1013236385715834880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-3198831166113582923.ampproject.net%2F1531347091169%2Fframe.html

As for what teams are jockeying to do with their cap space.  No, they’re probably not clearing it to sign Marcus Smart.  But we’ve seen time and again that when NBA teams miss out on the 5-7 big names in a major free agency summer the response of many is to give a lot of money to rotational players.  With as many teams having space as they do next summer, certainly this play will repeat itself.

And what does it matter about Cousins? The Celtics never chose between Smart and Cousins.  They may have chosen between Baynes and Cousins, but probably not.
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1115 on: July 20, 2018, 01:27:15 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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And we're saying even though Marcus has one of the worst offensive ratings in the league the offense is somehow BETTER when he's playing? How in the world does this happen?
I am not saying it, it literally happened last year. When Marcus Smart was on the floor the Celtics offense was more efficient than it was when he was off the court.

This also occurred during the playoffs.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018/on-off/

Now raw on/off numbers are tricky, but they do indicate that Marcus wasn't some disaster for the C's offense as you believe.

Yeah ... um ... you really have to take these numbers with a GIGANTIC grain of salt unless you actually dive into the details.

For example, you need to consider things like, when Marcus was on the floor about half  (48%) the time Kyrie was also on the floor.  For Rozier, Kyrie shared the floor with him on just 22% of the time.   

Sharing the floor more often with a guy who is not only an elite 60% TS high efficiency scorer but also a very high, greater than 30% USG scorer, will tend to do wonders for your offensive rating.


                 minutes poss   ORtg     DRtg    Net (per 100)
Marcus w/ Irving    837  1667   117.4   104.6    +12.8
Marcus w/o Irving   936  1827   103.8   103.5     +0.3

Rozier w/ Irving    531  1049   112.4   109.5     +2.9
Rozier w/o Irving  1900  3689   108.4   105.7     +2.7


It's important to really look at the details of who is sharing the floor with a player when looking at ORtg and DRtg and on/off number. 

I think it's important to look at actual 5-man data to see what it tells you.  The difficulty there is getting samples of sufficient size.

Marcus' most commonly used 5-man unit was with Kyrie, the two J's and Al.
Rozier's most common 5-man unit was with the two J's, Al and Aron.   Here is how they performed:


Unit                                  minutes  possessions   ORtg     DRtg    Net (per 100)
Kyrie+Smart+Jaylen+Jayson+Horford     140       281          116.2   112.7    +3.5
Rozier+Jaylen+Jayson+Horford+Baynes   163       306          111.0   100.3   +10.7

Unfortunately, the 'swap' units of Smart with the two J's, Al & Aron (just 45 minutes) and Rozier with Kyrie, the two J's and Al (just 49 minutes) are both too small to be useful as comparisons. 

Even 200 minute sample sizes are extremely volatile, so much so that they hold no real value as evidence of anything.  You don't get any sort of normalcy until you reach much higher minute totals.  This makes use of an individual 5 man unit negligible because you simply don't have enough evidence to decipher anything from them.

The Offense was better when irving was paired with Smart rather than Rozier. The defense was also dramatically better when Irving was paired with Smart.

But was the offense better because Irving was paid with Smart?  Or was it because of who else was on the floor?

Outside of Kyrie, it's pretty clear that the best offensive players (when you consider both volume and efficiency) on last year's squad were Horford, Jayson, Jaylen, Morris and to a lesser extent, Rozier.

When Kyrie and Smart were on the floor,  the other three guys were exclusively from that group 38% of the time (most of that was, in fact from the first three names mentioned).

When Kyrie and Rozier were on the floor, the other three guys were exclusively from that group just 19% of the time.   A much larger percentage of the time was shared with guys like Smart, Baynes, Semi, Theis,Nader, etc.

And certainly, the defense of the KI+MS twosome was better -- for largely the same reason.  Having Al Horford, Jaylen Brown on the floor for most of that is a fearsome defensive thing.  The Kyrie+Smart+Jaylen+Horford foursome gave up just 104.1 points per 100.  But I mean, the Kyrie+Rozier+Jaylen+Horford 4-man unit gave up just 103.1 points per 100 itself.  It's just a small sample, though and only a small portion of Rozier's time on the floor.

Quote
Irving is going to be on the floor a lot and it shouldn't even be a question as to who you would rather have on the floor with him.

This I agree with.  The guys who you should most want to see on the floor next to Kyrie at the 2 spot are Jaylen or Gordon.    Not Smart or Rozier.   Because both Jaylen and Gordon are way, way, way more talented wings than either Smart or Rozier.

In our current depth chart, those two guys have to be considered ahead of either Smart or Rozier at the 2.   Smart and Rozier have to be considered fighting for the 3rd string role at the 2.   And frankly, given his size advantage on defense, it's easy to give Smart the nod there.

The real question is, who do you consider the backup at the 1?   Rozier proved to be pretty good at the 1 this last Spring.   

I don't claim to speak for Brad, but my depth chart would look something like this:

1:  Irving, Rozier, Smart, Wanamaker
2:  Brown/Hayward, Smart, Rozier, Nader, Wanamaker
3:  Hayward/Tatum, Brown, Morris, Semi, Nader
4:  Tatum/Horford, Theis, Morris, Yabusele, Semi
5:  Horford/Baynes, Theis, Yabusele, Williams

The name1/name2 first entries indicate that either guy could be the starter at that spot depending on whether we are starting small or starting big.   
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1116 on: July 20, 2018, 09:59:09 PM »

Offline Cman

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Can anyone let me know: what are the implications of the M Smart contract for bringing back Jabari Bird?

Sorry if it’s buried somewhere on page 62 and I missed it....
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1117 on: July 20, 2018, 11:11:19 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Can anyone let me know: what are the implications of the M Smart contract for bringing back Jabari Bird?

Sorry if it’s buried somewhere on page 62 and I missed it....

The Celtics will probably wait until they’ve sorted out Nader, who fully guarantees on July 31st, before moving forward with Bird.  So wait 10-14 more days I think.
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1118 on: July 22, 2018, 11:59:31 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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...  The guys who you should most want to see on the floor next to Kyrie at the 2 spot are Jaylen or Gordon.    Not Smart or Rozier.   Because both Jaylen and Gordon are way, way, way more talented wings than either Smart or Rozier.

Just what does "2 spot" mean here? Because if it means, "the player who guards the opponent's smaller wing", then I'd agree with you about Jaylen but not about Gordon.

In our current depth chart, those two guys have to be considered ahead of either Smart or Rozier at the 2.   Smart and Rozier have to be considered fighting for the 3rd string role at the 2.   And frankly, given his size advantage on defense, it's easy to give Smart the nod there.

This 1-5 business doesn't hold up very well in today's game, and particularly not with today's Celtics.

Smart played nearly all of his minutes paired with either Irving or Rozier. The roles shifted when he was on the court; they became more shooters/scorers while he took on more responsibility for creating offense (we all noticed, I bet, that Brad likes him posting up a lot). So was Smart the "1" when he was in? Not really, in my opinion. He wasn't mostly guarding point guards; in fact he was a lot more likely to guard up.

1-5 is an abstract scheme. It's more useful to fit the scheme to the players rather than the players to the scheme, but even then not everything will work.

The real question is, who do you consider the backup at the 1?   Rozier proved to be pretty good at the 1 this last Spring.   

Rozier is/was the backup, I agree.

...but my depth chart would look something like this:

1:  Irving, Rozier, Smart, Wanamaker
2:  Brown/Hayward, Smart, Rozier, Nader, Wanamaker
3:  Hayward/Tatum, Brown, Morris, Semi, Nader
4:  Tatum/Horford, Theis, Morris, Yabusele, Semi
5:  Horford/Baynes, Theis, Yabusele, Williams

The name1/name2 first entries indicate that either guy could be the starter at that spot depending on whether we are starting small or starting big.

Again, I don't think that it makes sense to have Smart in the depth chart at 1, or Hayward at 2.

Wanamaker at the 2 is dubious; it's likely that we'd see him paired with Rozier or possibly Irving at times (often, in fact), but that's to give those two a break from creating shots so that they can play off the ball, as we saw with Larkin last year - and Larkin always guarded the smaller player. Now Wanamaker is bigger and, we may hope, less exploitable and more versatile on defense than Larkin was, so it'll be interesting to see if he guards wings when he's in with Rozier or Irving. But he'll almost certainly be the primary ball handler when he's on the floor.

With the return of Hayward, I'd bet that the wing minutes for Morris and Ojeleye get reduced. It's true that Morris got minutes in two-big lineups last season, and Ojeleye got a fair number of wing minutes with Morris in big/swing lineups - those won't disappear completely. It's a long season, and the matchup chess match combined with the inevitable injuries means that there will be all sorts of unpredictable and exotic combinations. It will sure be interesting to see if Hayward gets swing minutes; I think that Tatum showed he could take that role, even as a rail-thin rookie; and that's the best role for Morris and Ojeleye.

Your putting Yabusele ahead of Ojeleye at "4" is puzzling; Semi played the bulk of his minutes there last year, and played rotation minutes, while Yabu was in and out of the G-League. How "good" those two are is a hotly debated topic around here, but you aren't actually claiming that Yabusele is the better player - or are you?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 12:12:21 PM by Hoopvortex »

Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1119 on: July 22, 2018, 01:22:48 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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...  The guys who you should most want to see on the floor next to Kyrie at the 2 spot are Jaylen or Gordon.    Not Smart or Rozier.   Because both Jaylen and Gordon are way, way, way more talented wings than either Smart or Rozier.

Just what does "2 spot" mean here? Because if it means, "the player who guards the opponent's smaller wing", then I'd agree with you about Jaylen but not about Gordon.

In our current depth chart, those two guys have to be considered ahead of either Smart or Rozier at the 2.   Smart and Rozier have to be considered fighting for the 3rd string role at the 2.   And frankly, given his size advantage on defense, it's easy to give Smart the nod there.

This 1-5 business doesn't hold up very well in today's game, and particularly not with today's Celtics.


Excuse me?  Did the NBA suddenly allow the Celtics to play a different number of players than 5?

I specifically used the 1-5 nomenclature because I know some fans here think that the concepts of "PG, SG, SF, PF & C" are no longer useable terms.  But whether you want to call them by those terms or "ball handlers, wings, swings & bigs" there are still 5 positions that need to be played.

Quote



...but my depth chart would look something like this:

1:  Irving, Rozier, Smart, Wanamaker
2:  Brown/Hayward, Smart, Rozier, Nader, Wanamaker
3:  Hayward/Tatum, Brown, Morris, Semi, Nader
4:  Tatum/Horford, Theis, Morris, Yabusele, Semi
5:  Horford/Baynes, Theis, Yabusele, Williams

The name1/name2 first entries indicate that either guy could be the starter at that spot depending on whether we are starting small or starting big.

Again, I don't think that it makes sense to have Smart in the depth chart at 1, or Hayward at 2.

I won't argue about Smart being a 1.   But we are talking 3rd string here.

Gordon Hayward has spent almost all of his NBA career playing either the '2' or '3' in Utah.

He split his time almost equally between those two position his last year there.  He can definitely play the 2.

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Wanamaker at the 2 is dubious;

Again I'm not going to argue over Wanamaker.  Until something changes (injury, emergence) he's not likely to get anything but garbage minutes.  But he's 6' 4", 210 lbs.  He can play the 2.
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With the return of Hayward, I'd bet that the wing minutes for Morris and Ojeleye get reduced.

This seems likely.
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Your putting Yabusele ahead of Ojeleye at "4" is puzzling; Semi played the bulk of his minutes there last year, and played rotation minutes, while Yabu was in and out of the G-League. How "good" those two are is a hotly debated topic around here, but you aren't actually claiming that Yabusele is the better player - or are you?

Nope.  Just seeing him as more of a pure "4" than Semi.  Arguing over whether he is ahead/behind Semi on the depth chart is splitting 3rd/4th string hairs.
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1120 on: July 22, 2018, 10:20:00 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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Brad tends to employ a flexible approach to lineups and is not strictly tied to the 1-5 system. Arguing over who is ahead of whom on the depth chart at each position is not all that useful. Brad looks instead at groups that work well together. The starting five will likely be Irving, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford. Smart, Rozier, Morris, Baynes, and Theis will be the main bench players. Semi may also work himself into the rotation, but I am doubtful of that until he shows that he can hit the three. I suspect he'll get most of his minutes filling in when guys are in foul trouble or out with injury.

Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1121 on: July 22, 2018, 10:47:08 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Brad tends to employ a flexible approach to lineups and is not strictly tied to the 1-5 system.

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting he's not going to play 5 players at a time?

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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1122 on: July 22, 2018, 11:13:17 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Brad tends to employ a flexible approach to lineups and is not strictly tied to the 1-5 system.

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting he's not going to play 5 players at a time?
He means the traditional 5 positions: PG, SG, SF, PF, C.
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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1123 on: July 22, 2018, 11:14:13 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Brad tends to employ a flexible approach to lineups and is not strictly tied to the 1-5 system.

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting he's not going to play 5 players at a time?

I'm not understanding your argument, which you've made several times.

The 1 - 5 system means something fairly specific:  five players playing five distinct positions, 1 - point guard, 2 - shooting guard, 3 - small forward, 4 - power forward, 5 - center

It doesn't mean "5 players", it means five positions.  It means traditional basketball, which clearly isn't the system Brad prefers.  He's a "ball handlers, wings, bigs" coach.  Three positions, rather than five.


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Re: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]
« Reply #1124 on: July 23, 2018, 11:50:26 AM »

Offline bellerephon

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Brad tends to employ a flexible approach to lineups and is not strictly tied to the 1-5 system.

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting he's not going to play 5 players at a time?
What I mean is that Brad is not often going to play a point guard, shooting guard, small forward, big forward and center. He often plays a ball handler, a big, and three wings. Sometimes two ball handlers, two wings and a big. Sometimes a ball handler and four wings. Sometimes a ball handler, two bigs, and two wings. I could go on but you get the idea.

My point is that it does not help all that much to worry about the depth chart with respect to traditional positions. It does not matter whether Theis is ahead of Morris at the 4 or not. Brad will play the lineup that is working well together and that fits the opponent and situation.