Author Topic: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers  (Read 2004 times)

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Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2018, 08:48:45 AM »

Offline gouki88

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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I don't agree with the reasoning that because he's a max guy, he should start. We've seen star players come off the bench (from Hondo, to McHale, to Ginobli), so that doesn't really stand up.

However, I think Hayward should start due to the way he actually plays the game. He's an elite facilitator on the wing, which is something both Tatum and Brown aren't good at (at the moment). He's a great shooter from deep, good and versatile defender - much stronger than Brown Tatum - and incredibly consistent. I think he'd be the perfect guy next to our two youngsters.

I'm sure Brad will figure it out. It's a very good problem to have
Brown is your 2 guard.
Fixed that. Either way, I think Hayward fits next to Brown and JT like a glove

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2018, 08:53:52 AM »

Offline bellerephon

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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.

I think it's clear that if Hayward comes back and is obviously a lesser player, then they will make a change. Ainge wants to win a championship, he's not going to let pride get in the way of that. The issue is whether the Celts should consider making Hayward a sixth man from the get go, like was done with Hondo.

I think there is no chance of that, nor do I think it is a good idea. People like to look back at Hondo's hall of fame career and say that he was willing to come off the bench. They conveniently leave out, however, that he came off the bench at the beginning of his career when the Celts were a championship dynasty with hall of famers on the roster. Yes, this went on for a few years, but again, the Celts were already winning championships as constructed, so it was wise not to mess with that.

The current Celts are still trying to construct a championship roster. Offense is still an issue for this team. To me, if Hayward is close to 100% then it is a no-brainer that he should start. He's their second best offensive player, a very good defender, and fits well into the team offense as he does not need to have the ball in his hands to be effective. I acknowledge that it is tough to ask a max player to come off the bench, but that's not the reason I think he should start. He should start because he's arguably the best player on the team. Kyrie is a better scorer, but Hayward is a far better defender and so overall may be their best player.

The only major benefit from bringing him off the bench is adding scoring to the second unit. But this can easily be addressed with the right substitutions. They can easily stagger their lineups so that you almost always have two of Kyrie, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, or Horford on the floor. There simply isn't any reason not to start Hayward.

One last word on Hondo. Yes it worked with him as sixth man. This situation is totally different. It's a different league. It's a different Celtics team. Hayward is the vet, not the young guy. A better analogy for the Hondo situation would be for Tatum to come off the bench, although I don't think that's a good idea either. Put the best five out there. I know that teams don't always do that, but in the Celts situation I think that is the right move.

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2018, 10:11:17 AM »

Offline vwoodruff

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I don't think the consideration of Rozier v. Irving is as simple a question as "who is a better player?" The real question Ainge has to answer is which player makes the C's better and more functional as a team. This is a much more difficult question to answer, and I think that Ainge is weighing some of the following considerations while recognizing that Irving is a far superior individual player:
  • Kyrie is a more ball dominant point guard than Rozier, so much so that the C's struggled mightily without him in stretches early in the season, only finally putting it together once forced to play without him. In other words, Irving wasn't plug-and-play with a system. In fact, the C's playing style was heavily dependent upon him for much of the season - perhaps too much so. With the ascendence of Tatum and Brown and the return of Hayward, will Irving buy into egalitarian basketball and be able to be the distributor or deferrer that he will need to be at times to maximize the C's success? This is an unknown with Irving and a known with Rozier.
  • How much will the Cs lose defensively with Irving? The elite combination of defenders in next year's starting 5 with Rozier is downright scary. Should a decision between Rozier and Irving be made in this off-season, the C's could boast a starting five of Rozier/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford with Smart/Bird/Ojeyle/Morris/Baynes/Theis off the bench. That defensive team could border on all-time great with no weak links on D and incredible offensive capability.
  • Choosing Rozier's contract over Irving's makes that roster possible over the long-term. Irving's contract likely means 2 of Smart/Rozier/Morris/Baynes are gone.
  • An Irving trade returns more assets than a Rozier trade. The lineup above could add a key big via draft or trade that would strengthen the C's roster. The biggest challenge there is constructing a deal that maximizes Kyrie's value (i.e. it may take a third team to make sure he will resign at his destination).
  • While Ainge has shown a certain sense of detachment when it comes to transactions (see Thomas, Isaiah), he very much appears to have a disproportionate affinity for Rozier. I don't usually consider Ainge to be emotional in his decision-making, but I haven't seen him be so protective and show such favoritism to a player. Perhaps it was just that he saw this potential in Rozier, so he was way more protective of him during Rozier's development and it will change now that more people see it. Maybe, but I sense that Rozier is his guy. It has to be difficult to detach from a pick that was widely criticized as a reach once the pick justifies the selection (and Ainge is human).

Not to say that these considerations compel Ainge to move Irving but rather to argue that this isn't a simple decision. On the "keep Irving" side of the ledger are jersey sales, minimizing ripples internally (it's easier to justify trading Rozier to get him a starting job than it is to trade Irving in a Wally Pipp/Drew Bledsoe scenario where Rozier hasn't quite Gehriged or Bradied this season), and having a more proven cold-blooded killer on the floor late in games.

I don't envy Ainge, but it is a good position to be in. If he doesn't float some scenarios this summer, he won't be doing his job.

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2018, 10:49:49 AM »

Online td450

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As long as Gordon Hayward is still Gordon Hayward, I don't see any reason not to start him. His game should only help Brown and Tatum. Assuming Tatum gained some weight, I'm not sure any team I can recall has ever started three wings that good, that big, and that interchangeable. Durant, Thompson and Green are great, but they aren't quick enough to cover some wings.

Each of them can defend bigger and smaller players, and they would be just as impressive on offense. Hayward can really pass and make decisions, so it would be fun to see.

It is more of a worry how Kyrie will adjust to the new structure of this team. However, Ainge can take this cold blooded thing too far. We still need to sign players, and we still want them to trust the Celtics. Flipping Irving or Hayward so quickly is a bit much. The IT trade still lingers in the minds of some players. We really don't need to do this too.

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2018, 10:59:25 AM »

Offline bellerephon

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I don't think the consideration of Rozier v. Irving is as simple a question as "who is a better player?" The real question Ainge has to answer is which player makes the C's better and more functional as a team. This is a much more difficult question to answer, and I think that Ainge is weighing some of the following considerations while recognizing that Irving is a far superior individual player:
You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2018, 12:08:10 PM »

Offline vwoodruff

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You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.

I don't think Rozier and Smart are competing for the same role or the same dollars.

Smart is sitting in his most advantageous position in this league - a hard-nosed, energy player for a team that is flexible enough to accept his foibles. If he's clamoring for a starting position, it is likely with a team that is in the lottery or competing for an eight-seed. Smart is going to be in a position to choose between paycheck and quality of workplace. If the Cs opt for Rozier over Irving, the ability to keep Smart and grow the C's in a sustainable manner (i.e. develop youngsters as veterans move towards lower paydays) increases. If the C's keep Irving, Rozier is gone and the C's likely have to decide between Smart and the sustainable building path over the long-term.

Rozier is competing directly with Irving for role and dollars. Rozier is capable of a starting position and starter's money and won't necessarily need to choose between salary and being in a winning situation. If the Cs keep Rozier, they can construct their roster for the long-term and keep Smart. If they keep Irving, it is possible both Rozier and Smart could be gone.

I think it is likely Ainge weighs the return he can get for Rozier or Irving and looks at the role his bevy of draft assets could perform in replacing Rozier and Smart should he see Irving as the best fit. I just see there being too much salary overlap between Irving, Hayward, Brown, and Tatum once Irving is extended and Brown and Tatum's deals come up to sustain the championship run this team could have.

Re: Jaylen Brown and Scary Terry are keepers
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2018, 12:19:40 PM »

Offline feckless

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You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.

I don't think Rozier and Smart are competing for the same role or the same dollars.

Smart is sitting in his most advantageous position in this league - a hard-nosed, energy player for a team that is flexible enough to accept his foibles. If he's clamoring for a starting position, it is likely with a team that is in the lottery or competing for an eight-seed. Smart is going to be in a position to choose between paycheck and quality of workplace. If the Cs opt for Rozier over Irving, the ability to keep Smart and grow the C's in a sustainable manner (i.e. develop youngsters as veterans move towards lower paydays) increases. If the C's keep Irving, Rozier is gone and the C's likely have to decide between Smart and the sustainable building path over the long-term.

Rozier is competing directly with Irving for role and dollars. Rozier is capable of a starting position and starter's money and won't necessarily need to choose between salary and being in a winning situation. If the Cs keep Rozier, they can construct their roster for the long-term and keep Smart. If they keep Irving, it is possible both Rozier and Smart could be gone.

I think it is likely Ainge weighs the return he can get for Rozier or Irving and looks at the role his bevy of draft assets could perform in replacing Rozier and Smart should he see Irving as the best fit. I just see there being too much salary overlap between Irving, Hayward, Brown, and Tatum once Irving is extended and Brown and Tatum's deals come up to sustain the championship run this team could have.

Rozier is not competing against Irving, period!  Rozier is where he is because he learned from Irving - he knows it, Brad knows it and Danny knows it, even Marcus knows it.  The question is who backs-up, plays alongside  (when others are injured) and provides insurance for Irving--Rozier or Smart.  Before Smart punched a mirror it was a coin toss --but I believe Terry has emerged as running the team's offense better on average than Marcus, and is more coachable.  But they have different strengths and Danny will try to keep both with the market dictating if that is possible.  First up is Marcus this summer.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 12:26:01 PM by feckless »
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