Author Topic: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.  (Read 1122 times)

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Offline Fafnir

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Rozier is a solid defender at PG and a elite defensive rebounder at PG for his size. But he's not someone you slot in to replace Irving and upgrade elsewhere.

The team defended at an elite level with Kyrie playing starter minutes all year, our issue is scoring.

Offline jambr380

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).

Offline nickagneta

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).
Or just keep both and Smart for next year. Then after winning the championship, you resign Rozier or sign and trade him. Then if he resigns, you decide in 2019-20 who to keep and do a deadline trade then when their higher salary will get more in return without adding a lot more salary. There's zero reason this decision can't be kicked down the road, especially if we win a chip next year and Wyc is willing to pay luxury tax.

Offline johnnygreen

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These trade Kyrie threads are getting ridiculous, even with the spin the OP put on this thread. One of the things that seems to be missing is the level at which we池e judging these two players differently. For Rozier, the argument seems to be that he has proven himself to be a starter. For Kyrie, is he a top 10 player in the world, and where will he rank as an all-time PG after he retires. Rozier is a great back-up PG, and a serviceable starter. I have no doubt in my mind that the Celtics would not be 1-6 on the road in the playoffs, if Kyrie was the starter.

The Celtics have arguably a top 3 PG in the league with Kyrie. I知 sure Danny could try to get Kawhi Leonard using Kyrie as trade bait, but that literally makes no sense. Yes Kawhi is a great player, but the Celtics already have all-star caliber players at the possible two (or three) positions that he could play. I知 also definitely not trading an elite player in Kyrie, who has proven himself all year to be a team first player, for a guy in Kawhi that has put himself before his team and bailed on his teammates. I strongly believe the Celtics will be able to extend Kyrie, however, I would have very little confidence that Kawhi would sign an extension without testing free agency.

Offline droopdog7

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).
Okay, so who said you can trade Kyrie for Kawhi?  And who said you could trade Kyrie and upgrade?  Those a big assumptions.  And what about the fit of Kawhi with what we currently have on the roster?  Not just about Kyrie versus Kawhi and Rozier.

And, and this is a big one for me, if you do build a an uber talented team everywhere except PG, then Rozier may be the last PG you want with that team.  Dude's a chucker and more of a combo guard.  Give me a facilitating PG over Rozier all day long.

Offline KGs Knee

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).

Acquiring Kawhi then means you'd need to trade one of Tatum, Brown, or Hayward. You can't realistically expect to keep all four of them, there's no way to play all four of them together for meaningful stretches.

Offline rollie mass

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Open mind-this is a mindless idea.

Offline PhoSita

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Open mind-this is a mindless idea.

I logged in just to give you a TP.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline jambr380

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I have no problem rolling out a team of Kawhi, Hayward, Jaylen, Jayson, and Al with solid ammunition off the bench at the guard spots. I like Kyrie a lot and there are very few players I would trade him for (like 2 or 3), but he isn't on Kawhi's level - especially defensively. If SA called Ainge and offered this deal up 1 for 1, he would take it. I swear, people are much more enamored with Kyrie now than before he got injured.

And I am perfectly fine with nick's plan of keeping everybody through next year and taking our best shot at GSW (he has been pretty adamant about this). I just wish it wasn't one of the best teams ever assembled we were fighting against.

Offline CelticsElite

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).

Acquiring Kawhi then means you'd need to trade one of Tatum, Brown, or Hayward. You can't realistically expect to keep all four of them, there's no way to play all four of them together for meaningful stretches.
also the salary cap makes it impossible to keep all 4.


Offline Beat LA

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"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D

Offline PhoSita

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"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D

That's why you get tinted windows ;)

Or if you live in a place like where I live, where it's rarely ever warmer than 75 and rarely colder than 50, it's not an issue. :)
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline KGs Knee

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I have no problem rolling out a team of Kawhi, Hayward, Jaylen, Jayson, and Al with solid ammunition off the bench at the guard spots. I like Kyrie a lot and there are very few players I would trade him for (like 2 or 3), but he isn't on Kawhi's level - especially defensively. If SA called Ainge and offered this deal up 1 for 1, he would take it. I swear, people are much more enamored with Kyrie now than before he got injured.


Kawhi may very well be a better all-around player than Kyrie, but a lineup of Horford-Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Irving would be hands down superior to a lineup of Horford-Tatum-Hayward-Leonard-Brown.

You're asking for all kinds of problems running out a lineup with no primary ball-handler.

Offline Beat LA

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"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D

That's why you get tinted windows ;)

Or if you live in a place like where I live, where it's rarely ever warmer than 75 and rarely colder than 50, it's not an issue. :)

Ohhhh, fancy ;D.

Offline Beat LA

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Rozier is a garbage defender. I'm not sure how much better he is when compared to irving.

Then take the fact that Irving is monumentally better than a Rozier as an offensive player and it's an easy easy easy call.

I'd ship Rozier out for something with long term team control be it a pick or youn guy.

::)