Author Topic: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.  (Read 4422 times)

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Offline smokeablount

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We could have used Kyrie when we were shooting 37% during these past 2 road games. 

I like Terry a lot, he's been a stud, but unless special circumstances arise with Kyrie's health or an amazing player / asset that Kyrie could fetch us, Terry is not a real replacement for Kyrie.  What makes an all star / superstar is not being excellent, but being consistently excellent.  Kyrie is only 1 year older than Rozier, but Kyrie's nightly consistency clearly separates him from Rozier now, and probably always.  He's also championship tested.  I want him on this team.
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Offline Monkhouse

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Rozier has been playing lights out this year, and I'm super impressed. He's shown and put a lot of dedication into his craft, and his play this year in the playoffs definitely has given some thought about trading Kyrie, but these are my pros and cons.

Pros:
He's younger, more athletic, and would be getting paid less.
He's shown in short spurts that he can make some astounding plays on both ends.
He can shoot, and score quicker, and use his ability to jump higher to make it difficult to block his shots. He's also improved his 3 point shots.

Cons:
Is his defense really that much better than Kyrie? I have honestly been up and down with his defense. At times he seems to be able to glide effortlessly similar to like Paul George with his quick lateral ability, but then he gets blown by players that I would've never imagined would have done so.
Rozier still cannot take over the game. The Bucks game after watching all the angles and separate camera views. They foolishly didn't contest his 3 point shots, and gave him way TOO easy of looks. The Bucks were in the bottom 5 percentile for worst 3 pt % allowed.
Rozier's handling is still suspect. I don't trust him as well. He also seems to try to push the pace too quick without thinking things through at times.
He is definitely going to be a starting PG on another team, but the question is, at what cost?

_____________

My last final thoughts is that Rozier is going to garner much more look than I anticipated. Teams that need a PG, or scoring undersized SG/PG combo guard may try to take a bite at him. I will also mention if you take a look at Brown, Tatum, and Rozier, their handling has been 2x as better than originally... While you cannot just attribute that based on hard work alone, I think the effect of having a leader and clutch scorer and one of the greatest ball handlers in the history of the NBA to rely and be given positive feedback is vital in Kyrie. His handling has most definitely had positive effects on all players. Tatum is able to do shake and bake moves that I haven't seen him pull off so easily against NBA defenders in his college highlights. Rozier has also mentioned that Kyrie has been a huge influence on him.

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Terry Rozier on Kyrie Irving's leadership from afar: "He’s here with us. His spirit is here. He’s still part of this team. He’s still our leader.”

Quote
“No. I haven’t changed my mind,” Rozier said with a grin after leading the Celtics to a 119-110 win over the Atlanta Hawks. “Kyrie’s probably one of my biggest supporters outside of my family through this little process. So I know he’s happy for me. And when he comes back he’s going to pick it up.”

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So, with Irving's shoes on his feet, and his wisdom in his head, Rozier is introducing the world to "Scary Terry," a lightning-fast guard with elite athleticism, steady ballhandling and a fun-loving personality that has aided his rise to the national spotlight this postseason.

"Kyrie's big advice was for me to be myself. That's the most important thing, he said," Rozier said. "There was nothing that he could teach me in so little time. So he told me to be myself. He believes in me, and I believe in myself.

"Now I'm just going out there and doing what I do."

Regardless of whether or not Kyrie comes back healthy, is still up for discussion. Either way, you have to choose who would be better suited for this team.. And if Hayward is coming back, he is going to be the one who is going to be hurt with his PPG. But I think someone like Hayward, who completely buys and trusts in the system, would be okay with sharing the ball, and acquiring more assists at the cost of his PPG.

Honestly, PPG is so overrated. It's something that I have always hated when people bring up superstars... Yes Curry can score, along with Harden and KD. But they are all in great systems with fantastic ball movement.

Also Kyrie has star power... AD has also reportedly mentioned during USA team camp that him and Kyrie became very close friends.

Quote
If Anthony Davis becomes available — and the Celtics’ eyes are very much trained on him — Boston could throw together a package more compelling than just about anyone else’s.

Irving would be an indirect part of that package. The NBA’s superstar class respects his ballsy showman’s game.

Even KP thinks Kyrie would've been the best option to add to his team.

Quote
“Any time a great player in this league has you on their list, you got to be happy about it,’’ Jeff Hornacek said. “He ended up here in Boston. He’s going to really help those guys.”

Porzingis was in Latvia training for the European championships during the Irving Sweepstakes.

“I saw it on Twitter,’’ Porzingis said. “As I said, I wasn’t trying to pay too much attention to my own trade talks — even less to other guys.”

He admitted an Irving addition could have changed the landscape.

“Playing with a guy like that would make the game a lot easier,’’ Porzingis said. “That’s dreaming how it would be. He’s not here with us. He’s in Boston. That type of player would bring a lot to this team.’’

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Offline PhoSita

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The car analogy isn't really fair because Rozier is arguably more than a Kia in this debate.
I'm trying to create a reasonable discussion here by looking at things like the Bucks series, and tying in the possibility that Rozier gets even better as a player with another offseason under his belt.


I don't think that it's likely that Rozier would be able to play the way he did against Milwaukee, Philly etc over the course of a regular season let alone for multiple seasons.

Kyrie is a proven 25+ ppg guy with elite scoring efficiency and has shown he can put up 27-30 ppg in a tough playoff series.


Rozier's play this postseason has been admirable and fun to watch but I think it's folly to assume that's who he is moving forward.


Kyrie is a superstar who should be very good for years to come.  Any team with him on it will be relevant and competitive for the near future.  Let's not mess with that.


Say it with me:

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.


The focus of the Celts should be seeing what that group can do together. 

All the other guys are supporting players.  We can grow attached to Scary Terry, Smarf, Mook, Australia, etc, but supporting guys come and go.  The core of the team is strong and I can't wait to see them play together.
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Offline knuckleballer

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If we have the same team next year with a healthy Haywayd and Irving goes down with another injury, can we win a title?  I don't think so.  We barely got past Milwaukee and just got our butts kicked the last two games.  I don't think Hayward and improvement form Jayson and Jalen would put us past GS.  Maybe we'd get to the finals, but I doubt we'd win it all.  With Kyrie we'd have a chance. 

Trading Kyrie for say Bamba or Jackson still won't be enough to win it all.  So, I say move Rozier and the Sac pick if it can get one of this draft's bigs to add some depth next season and to develop for the future.  Rozier's minutes will be limited next year anyway assuming the team is healthy.  If the team is missing Irving, we're not winning it all anyway.

Offline CF033

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I really don't know how this is all going to play out but it's going to a lot of fun watching.

Can you imagine the starting lineup next year?

Irving
Brown
Tatum
Hayward
Horford

With Rozier, Smart, etc. coming off the bench?

We'll easily be the best team in the east next year assuming no major injuries, and LeBron doesn't go to Philadelphia or something crazy like that.

Brown and/or Tatum could easily grow to become the type of players that can make shots when the team is cold. One day we'll look back at this lineup and say 'wow, there were basically 5 all-stars playing together'.

Offline droopdog7

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This is not a debate people!

Offline nickagneta

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Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.

But surely we'd be getting scored on even more with Kyrie guarding the same guys Rozier is guarding?
Apparently you haven't been watching the past few games where the Cavs have switched Rozier onto a big and scored constantly on him. Rozier's better defense is easy to get around if a coach sees that the main liability defensively is your PG who can't physically compete with bigs. Smart can but neither Rozier or Kyrie can.

That said, yes, Rozier is a better defender than Kyrie, but he can be exploited with a good game plan as much as Kyrie.

Offline Big333223

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TP to PhoSita.

The funny thing is, Rozier is only 2 years younger than Kyrie. We're all super impressed with Terry's playoff run and I'm proud of him but when Kyrie was the same age he was averaging 25 ppg in the playoffs for an NBA Champion and hitting huge shots in the Finals. These guys just aren't the on the same level.
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Offline chambers

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.
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Offline wdleehi

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.


We have seen Kyrie with this team.   And it was good.  The young players were good. 


So his addition isn't an issue.  Finding minutes for Rozier could be an issue especially if Smart comes back. 


As for Hayward, just not concern about him taking away touches in the offense.   He looks like a play in the system guy.   

Offline RJ87

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.

I just lol'd. If Kyrie can get you 25 points on near 50-40-90 percentages, you take that and be happy.

You know what this team needs right now? A guy who can get you a bucket when you can't even convert a simple dunk on the road in the playoffs. We have that guy.
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Offline Ilikesports17

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Rozier is a garbage defender. I'm not sure how much better he is when compared to irving.

Then take the fact that Irving is monumentally better than a Rozier as an offensive player and it's an easy easy easy call.

I'd ship Rozier out for something with long term team control be it a pick or youn guy.
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Offline Jvalin

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We cannot keep both Smart and Rozier. If Danny believes Rozier is the odd man out, now is the time to trade him. His trade value will never be higher.

Offline Ilikesports17

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I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.
Rozier is so far from an elite level defensively
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Offline Vermont Green

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Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).