Author Topic: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.  (Read 974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
The beauty of this discussion is that we have an entire season next year to see which lineups work the best for us.

I think we have the luxury of seeing how Kyrie responds to the knee next year and how much Rozier gets.

But to say Kyrie is definitely not being traded is short sighted.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping Kyrie (if he comes back and can play 70 games + playoffs/finals etc next season).

But I can see the merits of the 'trade Kyrie' argument.
-Rozier's defense is a level above Kyrie's- we are a better defensive team overall. (although when we get to the Lebron and Durant match ups, it doesn't make as much of a difference as we've seen).
-Rozier is a better rebounder.
-Tatum has become a much better scorer without Kyrie on court.
-Brown has become a much better scorer as well.
-The ball is moving more. We are averaging more passes per possession.
-Rozier will be cheaper.
-Our scoring is more balanced because we are getting more players involved on offense.

Rozier's been super reliable/clutch for most of the playoffs. Is he on a hot streak? Maybe. But he's proven he's a potential keeper and the argument is that we are a better 'team' with Rozier instead of Kyrie.

The biggest question I have regarding Kyrie is:
When he comes back, with Hayward, what happens to Tatum and Brown's offense.
Someone is going to have to give up some points on the stat sheet. Kyrie's ego signals to us that he won't be the one willing to give up his stats.
So how will that effect our younger players and Hayward?

The great news, as stated above, is that we have an entire season to find answers to these questions next year.
So for now, I'm in the keep Kyrie camp. But I am excited to see which path leads us to being the better team. Danny's doing the same.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32766
  • Tommy Points: 1525
  • Pre-school artwork
Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.   


Knicks: Irving, Drummond, Marcus Morris, S. Muhammad, C. Lee, Sullinger, Hield, M. Chriss , V. Carter, T. Zeller, N. Cole, T. Prince, Livio Jean-Charles, Tyler Ulis, N. Collison

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17101
  • Tommy Points: 1540
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32766
  • Tommy Points: 1525
  • Pre-school artwork
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?

Knicks: Irving, Drummond, Marcus Morris, S. Muhammad, C. Lee, Sullinger, Hield, M. Chriss , V. Carter, T. Zeller, N. Cole, T. Prince, Livio Jean-Charles, Tyler Ulis, N. Collison

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.

But surely we'd be getting scored on even more with Kyrie guarding the same guys Rozier is guarding?

It's not just about Kyrie hitting big shots. It's about giving our other players the opportunity to score and contribute on offense.
With Hayward coming back, there are going to be even less shots for everyone.

I'm saying that we should keep an open mind that with Rozier out there, what we lose in iso situations and tough shot making with Kyrie, we perhaps gain just as much defensively and on ball movement.

I just believe Kyrie is going to have to adjust his game a bit next season and pass more.
We've seen the offensive talent that Brown and Tatum have. Add in Hayward coming back and if Kyrie is going to keep getting 24.4 ppg then our other guys are going to suffer.
I'm hoping he can play better defense and put some numbers like 20ppg and 8 assists per game- with the same tough shots. I just hope he can do that with his ego and put the team first.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?
I can't see how a Lexus with a blown gasket, taking up 25% of your income for 4 years is ever giving you the best chance to win.

Arguments aside, I think we are very lucky that we get to see how things progress next season before making a decision.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32766
  • Tommy Points: 1525
  • Pre-school artwork
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?
I can't see how a Lexus with a blown gasket, taking up 25% of your income for 4 years is ever giving you the best chance to win.

Arguments aside, I think we are very lucky that we get to see how things progress next season before making a decision.


Because it hasn't blown a gasket.  There is no reason to believe it is going to happen. 


Better question, why trade Irving coming off the injury?

Knicks: Irving, Drummond, Marcus Morris, S. Muhammad, C. Lee, Sullinger, Hield, M. Chriss , V. Carter, T. Zeller, N. Cole, T. Prince, Livio Jean-Charles, Tyler Ulis, N. Collison

Offline PaulAllen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
  • Tommy Points: 55
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself

Offline gouki88

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3437
  • Tommy Points: 31
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
Rofl.

Points like "scoring becomes more balanced" aren't really positive to me, as it's simply just worse offensive talents getting more shots than they should be. I'm definitely team Lexus

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself


I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
Rofl.

Points like "scoring becomes more balanced" aren't really positive to me, as it's simply just worse offensive talents getting more shots than they should be. I'm definitely team Lexus


The car analogy isn't really fair because Rozier is arguably more than a Kia in this debate.
I'm trying to create a reasonable discussion here by looking at things like the Bucks series, and tying in the possibility that Rozier gets even better as a player with another offseason under his belt.
eg Bucks series.
Rozier scored 18 points, 6.7 assists, 1.5 turnovers, 4 rebounds with a usage rate of 21%.
He also held Bledsoe to 13.6 ppg (from his usual 18 ppg) and 3.8 assist pg (from his usual 5 per game).
His help defense and rotational defense was also light years ahead of what we could have hoped for from Kyrie.
I think the usage rate is important though, because with a 10% less usage rate (than Kyrie's average of 31%), it means his team mates are getting more shots, more ball, and being rewarded for their defensive efforts more.

My point is, that if Rozier continues to get better on the offensive end, and maintains his defensive prowess, then his contribution to the team's overall success vs Kyrie's needs to be looked at.

Now if Kyrie (at only age 26), can improve his defensive impact, and move the ball more so his team mates can be more involved, then the argument becomes less viable.

Would we have seen how good Jason Tatum and Brown can be if Kyrie were playing for us this playoffs? I'm not so sure. They're going to get even less of the ball with Hayward AND Irving coming back. I'm not worried about Hayward passing and moving the ball, sacrificing stats for the good of the team. But I am slightly concerned about Kyrie.

I am being unreasonable here? I don't think so.


"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline PaulAllen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
  • Tommy Points: 55
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself


I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.

thats like saying Houston is playing "elite" defense...c'mon man

Offline KGs Knee

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10505
  • Tommy Points: 1176
There's not really much to discuss. Rozier is simply an inferior player than Kyrie. Rozier has demonstrated that he cannot take over a game and carry the entire scoring burden when necessary.   Kyrie has proven he can, and can do it in high pressure situations like last night.

Balanced scoring is great, and I'm not dismissing the value of that. But having a guy who can carry the load by themselves is more important. It always has been, and always will be.

Offline slamtheking

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18778
  • Tommy Points: 8854
There's not really much to discuss. Rozier is simply an inferior player than Kyrie. Rozier has demonstrated that he cannot take over a game and carry the entire scoring burden when necessary.   Kyrie has proven he can, and can do it in high pressure situations like last night.

Balanced scoring is great, and I'm not dismissing the value of that. But having a guy who can carry the load by themselves is more important. It always has been, and always will be.
agreed - if anything, this playoff run has shown that this team really needs a player that they can turn to generate points when everyone's shot is off.  Kyrie is that type of player. 

Kyrie has shown he's better at facilitating an offense than Rozier. 

I take Kyrie over Rozier 100 times out of 100.  Rozier is a just fine as a backup PG.  I wouldn't want him to be the full time starter at PG though.  spot starting, sure.  full time, no.