Author Topic: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks  (Read 20283 times)

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Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2018, 02:54:08 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Yup, let's trade our best player (Kyrie) for an inferior player who plays a position we're already set at, and in the process create a roster imbalance that will force us to not be able to play our 5 best players to either start nor finish games.

Yup, Celtics fans done lost their [dang] minds.
Lol you must not be talking about the Celtics. Our guards and wings are way stronger than our bigs. This post is completely backwards, and that's not even up for debate.
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Taj Gibson / Nemanja Bjelica / Jonas Jerebko
KAT / Derrick Favors / Cole Aldrich
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Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2018, 02:59:29 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Don't see what he would bring to the table. I just watched highlights and all he do is hit tough shots. Those buckets will not always go in. Seems overrated o me.
This is quite possibly the worst reasoning I have ever heard for not liking a player. You just watched his highlights, he made tough shots, and that means he isn't good?? LOL. What are highlights suppose to show? Wide open shots? And do you really have to look up highlight for KAT?
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Taj Gibson / Nemanja Bjelica / Jonas Jerebko
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Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2018, 03:00:27 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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I rather try to make a move for on of the young Centers in the 4-8 range using Rozier and picks that could use a couple years to develop into a starting C.

If you move Irving for Towns, you then have an issue with the PF/C spot next season with Tatum/Horford/Hayward/Towns.

If you can snag some one like Carter who is a good defender and rebounder, and have him learn under Horford for a couple seasons and then becomes the starting C when Horfords contract is done, would be a better move.

Celtics weakness right now is consistent scoring from one guy, but that changes when Irving and Hayward comes back, and rebounding and rim protection. So getting a center that is defensive minded, rim protects and can hit an eighteen foot jump shot would be ideal to grow up with Brown and Tatum for the second wave of this team.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2018, 03:30:39 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Smh people are actually suggesting we trade Kyrie for Towns??

What's next, once we acquire Towns, Towns for Harden! Then Harden for Davis!  :P

You left out the critical step: Davis for multiple first round picks over the next ten years. Or maybe we can get picks 1-5 in the 2020 draft.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2018, 03:34:03 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Yup, let's trade our best player (Kyrie) for an inferior player who plays a position we're already set at, and in the process create a roster imbalance that will force us to not be able to play our 5 best players to either start nor finish games.

Yup, Celtics fans done lost their [dang] minds.
Lol you must not be talking about the Celtics. Our guards and wings are way stronger than our bigs. This post is completely backwards, and that's not even up for debate.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Trading Kyrie for KAT would result in our five best players being two bigs and three wings. None of them are primary ball handlers. In order to put a primary ball handler on the court we would have to take one of our five best players off the court.

That is not good roster management any way you slice it.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2018, 03:39:23 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Yup, let's trade our best player (Kyrie) for an inferior player who plays a position we're already set at, and in the process create a roster imbalance that will force us to not be able to play our 5 best players to either start nor finish games.

Yup, Celtics fans done lost their [dang] minds.
Lol you must not be talking about the Celtics. Our guards and wings are way stronger than our bigs. This post is completely backwards, and that's not even up for debate.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Trading Kyrie for KAT would result in our five best players being two bigs and three wings. None of them are primary ball handlers. In order to put a primary ball handler on the court we would have to take one of our five best players off the court.

That is not good roster management any way you slice it.

I’m with KGsKnees. If we are targeting an acquisition it should be a younger big we can groom as Al’s replacement down the road a few years. You might move a wing for KAT, to avoid the problem, but that team has a very different style to what we are succeeding with now, so I’d be surprised if that’s the play.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2018, 03:47:01 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Yup, let's trade our best player (Kyrie) for an inferior player who plays a position we're already set at, and in the process create a roster imbalance that will force us to not be able to play our 5 best players to either start nor finish games.

Yup, Celtics fans done lost their [dang] minds.
Lol you must not be talking about the Celtics. Our guards and wings are way stronger than our bigs. This post is completely backwards, and that's not even up for debate.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Trading Kyrie for KAT would result in our five best players being two bigs and three wings. None of them are primary ball handlers. In order to put a primary ball handler on the court we would have to take one of our five best players off the court.

That is not good roster management any way you slice it.
Key word being "if" we traded Kyrie. You said we are already set at big. It is our biggest position of need lol. Hayward/Tatum/Brown > Horford/Baynes/Theis. Also, Kyrie/Rozier/Smart > Horford/Baynes/Theis. We already have a roster imbalance, but it won't be fixed by trading Kyrie for Towns. Sorry buddy, but you're wrong.
CB Mock Deadline - Minnesota Timberwolves
Kemba Walker / Tyus Jones / Aaron Brooks
Jimmy Butler / Jamal Crawford / Treveon Graham
Rodney Hood / Nic Batum / Marcus Georges Hunt
Taj Gibson / Nemanja Bjelica / Jonas Jerebko
KAT / Derrick Favors / Cole Aldrich
Picks - 2018 CHA 1st (Lotto protected), none out

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2018, 04:09:36 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Yup, let's trade our best player (Kyrie) for an inferior player who plays a position we're already set at, and in the process create a roster imbalance that will force us to not be able to play our 5 best players to either start nor finish games.

Yup, Celtics fans done lost their [dang] minds.
Lol you must not be talking about the Celtics. Our guards and wings are way stronger than our bigs. This post is completely backwards, and that's not even up for debate.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Trading Kyrie for KAT would result in our five best players being two bigs and three wings. None of them are primary ball handlers. In order to put a primary ball handler on the court we would have to take one of our five best players off the court.

That is not good roster management any way you slice it.
Key word being "if" we traded Kyrie. You said we are already set at big. It is our biggest position of need lol. Hayward/Tatum/Brown > Horford/Baynes/Theis. Also, Kyrie/Rozier/Smart > Horford/Baynes/Theis. We already have a roster imbalance, but it won't be fixed by trading Kyrie for Towns. Sorry buddy, but you're wrong.

I'm not your buddy, pal. ;)

But seriously, I'm not sure what you're not understanding. You can't have your five best players all be non-primary ball handlers. That's not going to work, period.

We already have an All-Star at C, we don't need another C of that caliber. At least not one who is at that level already. Finding an eventual replacement for Horford is a good idea, but not at the cost of your best player, and not if it compromises your ability to actually put your five best players all on the court at the same time.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2018, 04:26:23 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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It'd be aweso.e to have a star in the mid to low 20s in usage.  We have too much top end talent for 1 guy to be above a 30
Its actually extremely normal for a championship team to have a player with a usage% over 30% and 3 players over 27% usage %.  Just check recent champions for proof.

GS? I cant look it up, but I imagine they play at a much faster pace.  Our pace slowed considerably this season. That could also reflect shots vs time of possession, right? GS does my have anyone pounding the ball
Pretty sure pace has anything to do with usage% so not seeing your point. Knowing your hatred of Kyrie I think this is your way of saying you don't think Kyrie having a usage % over 30% is good for this team but look at last year's GSW championship.

Curry 30.1% usage
Durant 27.8% usage
Thompson 26.1% usage

Now this year's Warriors

Curry 31% usage
Durant 30.4% usage
Thompson 23.7% usage

The Cavs during their championship year

Lebron 31.4% usage
Irving 29.5% usage
Love 23.4% usage

Its just normal to have a couple of stars with high usage(around 30 or more) and then another one or two with good usage (20-28%).

I expect Kyrie to lead this team in usage at over 30% next year and then could see 3 more players with 20-29% usage producing Kyrie being the leading scorer with 2-3(thinking 3)other guys scoring in the 15-21 point per game area.

Pace does seem to be an important factor here.  If usg is the %age of possessions 'used' by a player, and differences in pace allow some teams to have more possessions than others, then two players with the same usage% could have meaningfully different contributing stats (e.g. higher pace - more FGAs).  GS is averaging 7 more possessions per 48 this postseason.

These Celts also differ from GS in other important ways.  GS's youth grew organically, just as ours have so successfully in these playoffs.  By the time they added KD, they were a vet group knowingly making individual sacrifices to win.  The Celts are in a much different position for 2 reasons.  1. A 20 y/o and 21 y/o showing tremendous growth, potential to be the best player(s) on our championship team, and the ability to carry this group to the Finals now; we need to prioritize their growth above all else.   And 2. An even deeper core of offense e threat.  We have a legitimate 6 guys worthy of that usg in the 20s that you mentioned, and that can only be pared down to 4 (incl an AS in Hayward:still 1 more) after you relegate Rozier to the bench and our all star center to a minimal role, and while still relying on both of them to facilitate the offense at times. 

Kyrie is relevant here in that he is the biggest threat to achieving optimal team play with a focus on individual growth, sustainability, and managing egos.  Maybe Terry gets frustrated and demands a trade, but as of now, all our other guys seem to be high in character and team oriented; in fact, I'd argue that while we may have more talent than some expected, it is our defense and high character as a team that is most responsible for this great playoff run.  But Kyrie has the biggest name, a large and evidently fragile ego, and very questionable character to threaten surgery if a trade demand weren't met.  Our success requires adjustment from him, and based on his past behavior, I dont trust that hes capable of that.  Hopefully I'm wrong, though.  If he can put his ego aside, we could won several chips beginning next season.
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Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2018, 05:00:18 PM »

Offline MaxAMillion

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I would totally do Kyrie for Towns and I am surprised the majority of Cs fans aren't on board. If you add in Aldrich and a minimum contract like Jones, then the trade is successful on trade machine.

Last year there were many people more enamored by Towns' potential over AD's. While I have always considered AD the ultimate prize, Towns would be an amazing piece to add to this roster and it would allow us to keep Rozier. Personally, I think a future of Towns+Rozier is better than just Kyrie. But I certainly won't complain if *all* we do is re-sign Kyrie to a max.
Completely agree. Towns is younger and healthier. If i thought we could get a healthy Irving going forward then I would say keep him, but Irving has struggled on and off with injuries since college.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2018, 05:12:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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It'd be aweso.e to have a star in the mid to low 20s in usage.  We have too much top end talent for 1 guy to be above a 30
Its actually extremely normal for a championship team to have a player with a usage% over 30% and 3 players over 27% usage %.  Just check recent champions for proof.

GS? I cant look it up, but I imagine they play at a much faster pace.  Our pace slowed considerably this season. That could also reflect shots vs time of possession, right? GS does my have anyone pounding the ball
Pretty sure pace has anything to do with usage% so not seeing your point. Knowing your hatred of Kyrie I think this is your way of saying you don't think Kyrie having a usage % over 30% is good for this team but look at last year's GSW championship.

Curry 30.1% usage
Durant 27.8% usage
Thompson 26.1% usage

Now this year's Warriors

Curry 31% usage
Durant 30.4% usage
Thompson 23.7% usage

The Cavs during their championship year

Lebron 31.4% usage
Irving 29.5% usage
Love 23.4% usage

Its just normal to have a couple of stars with high usage(around 30 or more) and then another one or two with good usage (20-28%).

I expect Kyrie to lead this team in usage at over 30% next year and then could see 3 more players with 20-29% usage producing Kyrie being the leading scorer with 2-3(thinking 3)other guys scoring in the 15-21 point per game area.

Pace does seem to be an important factor here.  If usg is the %age of possessions 'used' by a player, and differences in pace allow some teams to have more possessions than others, then two players with the same usage% could have meaningfully different contributing stats (e.g. higher pace - more FGAs).  GS is averaging 7 more possessions per 48 this postseason.

These Celts also differ from GS in other important ways.  GS's youth grew organically, just as ours have so successfully in these playoffs.  By the time they added KD, they were a vet group knowingly making individual sacrifices to win.  The Celts are in a much different position for 2 reasons.  1. A 20 y/o and 21 y/o showing tremendous growth, potential to be the best player(s) on our championship team, and the ability to carry this group to the Finals now; we need to prioritize their growth above all else.   And 2. An even deeper core of offense e threat.  We have a legitimate 6 guys worthy of that usg in the 20s that you mentioned, and that can only be pared down to 4 (incl an AS in Hayward:still 1 more) after you relegate Rozier to the bench and our all star center to a minimal role, and while still relying on both of them to facilitate the offense at times. 

Kyrie is relevant here in that he is the biggest threat to achieving optimal team play with a focus on individual growth, sustainability, and managing egos.  Maybe Terry gets frustrated and demands a trade, but as of now, all our other guys seem to be high in character and team oriented; in fact, I'd argue that while we may have more talent than some expected, it is our defense and high character as a team that is most responsible for this great playoff run.  But Kyrie has the biggest name, a large and evidently fragile ego, and very questionable character to threaten surgery if a trade demand weren't met.  Our success requires adjustment from him, and based on his past behavior, I dont trust that hes capable of that.  Hopefully I'm wrong, though.  If he can put his ego aside, we could won several chips beginning next season.
Here is thedefinition of usage %:
An estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

It has nothing to due with pace, or number of shots taken per 48. It has to do with the % of plays a player helps to finish while on the floor, like by scoring or getting an assist. So your take on Golden State is irrelevant, especially regarding how they got their players.

The simple fact is the most efficient offenses aren't offenses with a bunch of everyone in the 20% usage. As can be seen in the stats I showed, most championship team have at least one andsometi es two players in the 30% or more range. Why because they have superstars and its the superstars that win championships.

Kyrie isn't going to hurt this offense by having a 30% usage rate because its just common for stars to have a rate that high, even more so for PG stars.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2018, 05:18:19 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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I don't think the Celtics can beat out the Suns who have the number one pick.

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2018, 05:26:43 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I know that stats on losing teams are heavily distorted, but I don't think I've heard anyone talk about how good of a shooter KAT is.

I'm not saying he is a good big man shooter. I'm saying he is a good shooter and might be elite one day soon.

So far in his career, he is at 44% from 10-16 feet, 48% (8% of his total shots) from 16-23 feet (15% of his total shots), and 38% from 3 (17% of his total shots). That means he takes 40% of his shots from outside 10 feet, but his shooting percentage from out there is over 42%.

Of all the players I've seen with that shot distribution and percentage, the most comparable is Dirk, and KAT is better. KAT is also a better rim protector, rebounder, and post scorer than Dirk.

People have kind of piled on him with the ESPN narratives about his defense, and there is some truth there, but he is probably a better defender right now than Dirk ever has been, especially Dirk in his young 20s.

The problem, having been to a Wolves game (the scary one where Brown fell on his neck/head) and chatting with some fans around me, is that the fan base is tired of the rebuild (although I'd say the guys I talked to seemed content to just make the playoffs). That means that the Wolves would need to get back guys who are ready to compete in the playoffs now.

Al Horford is probably the guy they'd most be interested in, but I don't think Ainge would do that.
Irving is a possibility, but again, I don't think Ainge would do that.
Brown and Tatum are all redundant on their current roster and probably not guys Ainge wants to include in a trade package.

The Cs could offer a "rebuild" package around Rozier, Yabusele, the Kings pick, Memphis pick, etc., but again, I think they'd rather have a proven inside presence.

The only way I could see something happening would be to rope in a third team, sending the Kings pick and Yabusele to them for a proven two-way starter. That brings me to my trade ideas. Not sure any of these trades are legit, but with the number of stars that are unhappy, it may be a bit easier to orchestrate a trade to get them in a deal like this.

Celtics get KAT
Pistons get Teague, Yabusele and the Kings pick
Wolves get Rozier, Drummond, and Memphis Pick, Clippers pick

Celtics get KAT
Wolves get Wall, Yabusele
Wizards get Rozier, Teague, Kings pick, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

Celtics get KAT
Wolves get Lillard, Memphis pick, Clippers pick
Blazers get Rozier, Teague, Yabusele, Kings pick

Celtics get KAT
Wolves get Aldridge, Leonard
Spurs get Teague, Rozier, Yabusele, Dieng, Kings pick, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2018, 05:29:05 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Rosier and the Sac pick is where the Celtics offer starts. 

Irving, Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum are off the table. 

What other pieces does Min want? 

Re: Whoa, Karl-Anthony Towns "Frustrated", Possibly To Be In Trade Talks
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2018, 05:44:15 PM »

Offline byennie

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It'd be aweso.e to have a star in the mid to low 20s in usage.  We have too much top end talent for 1 guy to be above a 30
Its actually extremely normal for a championship team to have a player with a usage% over 30% and 3 players over 27% usage %.  Just check recent champions for proof.

GS? I cant look it up, but I imagine they play at a much faster pace.  Our pace slowed considerably this season. That could also reflect shots vs time of possession, right? GS does my have anyone pounding the ball
Pretty sure pace has anything to do with usage% so not seeing your point. Knowing your hatred of Kyrie I think this is your way of saying you don't think Kyrie having a usage % over 30% is good for this team but look at last year's GSW championship.

Curry 30.1% usage
Durant 27.8% usage
Thompson 26.1% usage

Now this year's Warriors

Curry 31% usage
Durant 30.4% usage
Thompson 23.7% usage

The Cavs during their championship year

Lebron 31.4% usage
Irving 29.5% usage
Love 23.4% usage

Its just normal to have a couple of stars with high usage(around 30 or more) and then another one or two with good usage (20-28%).

I expect Kyrie to lead this team in usage at over 30% next year and then could see 3 more players with 20-29% usage producing Kyrie being the leading scorer with 2-3(thinking 3)other guys scoring in the 15-21 point per game area.

Pace does seem to be an important factor here.  If usg is the %age of possessions 'used' by a player, and differences in pace allow some teams to have more possessions than others, then two players with the same usage% could have meaningfully different contributing stats (e.g. higher pace - more FGAs).  GS is averaging 7 more possessions per 48 this postseason.

These Celts also differ from GS in other important ways.  GS's youth grew organically, just as ours have so successfully in these playoffs.  By the time they added KD, they were a vet group knowingly making individual sacrifices to win.  The Celts are in a much different position for 2 reasons.  1. A 20 y/o and 21 y/o showing tremendous growth, potential to be the best player(s) on our championship team, and the ability to carry this group to the Finals now; we need to prioritize their growth above all else.   And 2. An even deeper core of offense e threat.  We have a legitimate 6 guys worthy of that usg in the 20s that you mentioned, and that can only be pared down to 4 (incl an AS in Hayward:still 1 more) after you relegate Rozier to the bench and our all star center to a minimal role, and while still relying on both of them to facilitate the offense at times. 

Kyrie is relevant here in that he is the biggest threat to achieving optimal team play with a focus on individual growth, sustainability, and managing egos.  Maybe Terry gets frustrated and demands a trade, but as of now, all our other guys seem to be high in character and team oriented; in fact, I'd argue that while we may have more talent than some expected, it is our defense and high character as a team that is most responsible for this great playoff run.  But Kyrie has the biggest name, a large and evidently fragile ego, and very questionable character to threaten surgery if a trade demand weren't met.  Our success requires adjustment from him, and based on his past behavior, I dont trust that hes capable of that.  Hopefully I'm wrong, though.  If he can put his ego aside, we could won several chips beginning next season.
Here is thedefinition of usage %:
An estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

It has nothing to due with pace, or number of shots taken per 48. It has to do with the % of plays a player helps to finish while on the floor, like by scoring or getting an assist. So your take on Golden State is irrelevant, especially regarding how they got their players.

The simple fact is the most efficient offenses aren't offenses with a bunch of everyone in the 20% usage. As can be seen in the stats I showed, most championship team have at least one andsometi es two players in the 30% or more range. Why because they have superstars and its the superstars that win championships.

Kyrie isn't going to hurt this offense by having a 30% usage rate because its just common for stars to have a rate that high, even more so for PG stars.

Both the Spurs (5 championships) and the Celtics Big 3 era featured 3-4 core players with usage rates in the 20s. Between the two they contended for something like 15+ years without anyone ever touching 30%.

So yeah, it's a superstar league, but I'm not buying a general rule about high usage and championships.