Author Topic: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?  (Read 9529 times)

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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2018, 10:06:26 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2018, 10:14:28 AM »

Offline Eja117

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2018, 10:14:36 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.


That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.


LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
This one has always been super tough for me. Prime Robinson was a 25/12/3/3+/1+ guy, whereas prime Hakeem was pretty much identical, except probably a better rebounder and worse scorer.

I feel as if Robinson is underrated, whereas Hakeem is merely accurately rated.
Hakeem and Robinson played against each other during their primes numerous times. Hakeem outplayed him, there is no doubt about that. He had more team and individual success. David never was as good of a scorer as Hakeem. Sure, the Admiral led the league in scoring, but he could be shut down in the postseason, teams could prepare for him, whether the Dream was unstoppable. He had too many moves, too soft of a touch, too refined footwork for the opposition, and of course, he had the ultimate confidence that culminated in his B2B domination that netted two championships.

To me, overall Robinson was a better defender than he was the offensive player. Physically, his body was better than Aytons or that of any center today. I remember him defending with great success (include Shaq) even in his last playoff runs.
7'2'', long, strong, explosive, moves lateraly, disciplined - a specimen, NAT GEO level.

The most sculpted arms and shoulders in NBA history.
Firstly, the reason why I say Hakeem is overrated is because people put him at crazy spots like 2nd greatest center of all time, whereas he's really probably at the Admiral's level. Also, teams couldn't gameplan for Hakeem because he actually had teammates that were great at putting the ball in the baske, while the Admiral had to drag a 25 win team into a 50 win team in his rookie season and had minimal offensive talent around him until he started aging. And yeah the "ultimate confidence" in an era where its best player wasn't playing or was just trying to get his game legs back.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2018, 10:29:18 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I always thought the Mailman had the most sculpted arms

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2018, 10:29:21 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love

They also never quit on their team, or left games early with cramps.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2018, 10:53:26 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF.  Love is an all-star in name only.  Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round. 

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2018, 10:57:21 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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LeBron is a great player that is for certain but there has always been some intangibles missing in his game.   Hard to put your finger on, but we will see it again in this series.   It is a must win for them tonight, so I expect him to be in full beast mode.

I think that if we can stay with them and he gets tired that he will fold like a deck of cards or come out the game saying the head injury is bothering him.   I live in Ohio, there is no player better in the world when things are going his way.   There also is no superstar willing to quit on his team faster when things are not going his way.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2018, 11:29:42 AM »

Offline Eja117

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF.  Love is an all-star in name only.  Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round.
It's the same team as last year, but instead of Kyrie they have Larry Nance Jr, Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, Ante Zizic, and Jeff Green.

They swept the Raptors.

I can't imagine Brad Stevens having a team like that and not being way better than they are.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2018, 12:02:54 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF.  Love is an all-star in name only.  Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round.
It's the same team as last year, but instead of Kyrie they have Larry Nance Jr, Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, Ante Zizic, and Jeff Green.

They swept the Raptors.

I can't imagine Brad Stevens having a team like that and not being way better than they are.
Instead of having a top 15 player who could help Lebron carry the load, they added a bunch of poor to mediocre role players and most of them were picked up at the trade deadline.  The only one of those players who'd even be in consideration to start for our depleted team is Hill.  Lue absolutely sucks as a coach which adds to the load Lebron is carrying.

Lebron swept the Raptors (talk about overrated).  It also took a Herculean effort from him to get past the Pacers in 7.   

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2018, 08:24:08 AM »

Online Moranis

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes.  In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks.  Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career). 

The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets.  Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not.  In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title).  The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott).  The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5. 

This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash. 
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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2018, 08:38:50 AM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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To answer the OP's question... No.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2018, 08:41:56 AM »

Offline Eja117

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes.  In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks.  Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career). 

The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets.  Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not.  In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title).  The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott).  The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5. 

This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash.
How about Jordan and Bill Russell?

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2018, 09:14:02 AM »

Online Moranis

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron.   Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving,  Parrish >> Bosh, Love 
Kareem>> Wade, Irving,  Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.

A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes.  In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks.  Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career). 

The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets.  Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not.  In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title).  The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott).  The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5. 

This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash.
How about Jordan and Bill Russell?
Bill Russell played with at least 4 other HOFers for basically his entire career.  It is pretty difficult to get any sort of gauge on what his career was like.  I will say though, the 1 time Chamberlain had 2 other in prime HOF teammates he steamrolled the Celtics.  It can't be understated how good a job Red did in putting those Celtics teams together.  He was the greatest GM the league has ever seen and it isn't close.   

Jordan really didn't lose series he shouldn't have lost (though did lose to a 1 all star, no HOF Bucks team), but he also never won as an underdog in his entire career.  Jordan was your classic front runner and during the title seasons was arguably playing with the 2nd best player in the entire league and the only player truly capable of guarding him. 
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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2018, 09:22:12 AM »

Offline bknova

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I'm pretty sure that a guy who has been the centerpiece of teams that have been to 8 straight NBA Finals cannot, by definition, be classified as overrated.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2018, 10:47:40 AM »

Offline Diggles

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I get it, you dislike Lebron.....   But the guy is really, really good.   A great teammate and competitor....    He is going to be a one of the top 5 players of the NBA.  Period.   
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