Author Topic: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?  (Read 1913 times)

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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2018, 08:26:53 AM »

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Chris Webber = bad shot selection throughout his career. Mediocre scoring efficiency yet never stopped him putting up loads of shots. Indifferent defender for majority of his healthy career and terrible defender post injury. Only had a couple of years where he put effort in on defense. A choker in big moments. Bad team leader. Almost always passed the buck to a teammate instead of taking control.

Dr. J = genuinely great player but I don't think he is top 15 all time. Did not make his teammates better. Great scorer around the basket but sketchy jump-shot. Good but unspectacular passer. A highly capable defender but often caught ball watching and going for home-run plays on D.

Definitely agree with CP3. Great talent but his obsession with spoon-feeding his teammates instead of trusting them hurt his teams.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2018, 08:33:48 AM »

Offline Green-18

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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.

I don't think CP3 is overrated though.  If anything the national narrative reinforces his lack of playoff success.  CP3 deserves to be included on a very short list of the best point guards of this generation.  His playoff failures are holding him back from consideration as one the the GOAT's at the PG position.  I'm not normally a fan of all-time lists but here is a recent ranking of the top 70 PG's from the Orlando magic site on NBA.com.  They ranked Paul at #13 which seems pretty fair to me.     

http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131
It's hard to be call someone as the best PG of an era if you don't show up when it matters for years and years. I feel like the last time he played this healthy and long in the postseason was the game 7 NOLA vs SAS series.

I never called him the definitive best.  My point is that most people mention the failures whenever his name comes up in these discussions.  The list I posted ranked Kidd, Nash, Parker, Curry, and Westbrook ahead of him.  If anything he is being rated perfectly among post-2000 PG's. 

As for the 7 game series against SAS, it's a shame that suffered the major knee injury shortly after that.  His speed and quickness was at an entirely different level. 

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2018, 08:40:30 AM »

Online gouki88

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First let me say that calling someone or something overrated doesn't mean that they're bad. They're just not as good as people make them out to be. I won't list guys like Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis because I don't believe they're big enough names to be "overrated." Saying that my list looks like this.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Pete Maravich
3. Dominique Wilkins
4. Carmelo Anyhony
5. Vince Carter
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Allen Iverson
8. Steve Nash
9. Dwight Howard
Pete Maravich is a weird one to list for me. I get that he never really maxed out on the talent that he had, and that his unbelievable college career might make him out as a guy that he wasn't, but he was still a very reliable 25/5/5 guy for some years. He was also amazingly talented

Curious as to why you think he was overrated

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2018, 09:06:35 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Here's my two cents on these debates.  I think we often tag players as overrated when in reality almost EVERYONE is saying the same thing.  I already made my points about CP3 but let's look at Vince Carter as another example.  There was a point in time that he was overrated during the middle stages of his career.  However, as time goes on I think his overall legacy has been placed in the proper perspective.  Most people remember Vince Carter an elite talent in his prime and the greatest dunker of all time.  Aside from those two things we never hear him mentioned as one of the greatest players of his generation.  His ranking seems pretty spot on to me.

Carmelo was also overrated for a short stretch but the general consensus is that he's a one-dimensional losing player.  Same goes for Dwight Howard.  People have been bashing his credentials for a long time. 

The overrated arguments are more applicable to LeBron, Kobe, Iverson etc.  There are mainstream defenders of Kobe who rank him firmly ahead of LeBron, just like there are people who attach the GOAT tag to LeBron.  Iverson also appears to be held in high regard compared to some of his peers who were equal or better winners.


Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2018, 09:16:37 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol


I absolutely hate this argument.

So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!  It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.

Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.

As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2018, 09:24:58 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Webber was a good one I hadn't thought of.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2018, 09:35:45 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Draymond Green on here.

I get it, he's a high energy presence in the court and a solid two-way player (very gritty defender). And yes, you need a guy like that on your team to win a championship.

THAT SAID, it makes me laugh when people say this guy is a Top-15 player in this league, and a "superstar". He may be a fringe all-star, but he's NOT a superstar. If he is, then there are about 25 other superstars in this league.

Put him on a team like Milwaukee or Memphis and you'll never hear from him again.
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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2018, 09:40:31 AM »

Online gouki88

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I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Draymond Green on here.

I get it, he's a high energy presence in the court and a solid two-way player (very gritty defender). And yes, you need a guy like that on your team to win a championship.

THAT SAID, it makes me laugh when people say this guy is a Top-15 player in this league, and a "superstar". He may be a fringe all-star, but he's NOT a superstar. If he is, then there are about 25 other superstars in this league.

Put him on a team like Milwaukee or Memphis and you'll never hear from him again.
Yep, lol. He was the first guy that popped into my head. He's a scumbag to boot

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 10:12:30 AM »

Offline The One

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No...he's a top 5 player of all time.

Much respect due.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 10:18:01 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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This is another piece relevant to "overrated" discussions, based on a Ringer article from a week ago.

This ties into another idea that bothers me; either teammates and team play matter when discussing star players or it doesn't. It bothers me when people glorify TEAM ball and its a TEAM game in one place, then attribute success or assign blame for failure to just the best player on the team. Either teammates and opponents and context matter or they don't; I tend to think they do, but I also tend to prefer nuance and not simplistic answers.

First, let me say I DO NOT LIKE PER in a vacuum. But it is useful to compare a player to himself from different stretches of a season, to roughly see are they player better or worse.

Quote
Exactly 150 players this season have played at least 10 minutes per game in both the regular season and playoffs, which makes such ordering easy: The 15 players with the greatest positive differential between their regular and postseason PER represent the top 10 percent of overachievers, while the 15 players with the greatest negative differential represent the top 10 percent of underachievers.

Here are the top 15 "overacheivers" from this year's playoffs:



Perhaps even more relevant to this conversation of "overrated" players is this portion:

Quote
One final wrinkle in this analysis is to look at career over- or underperformance in the postseason, and here, another player who purports to activate a playoff version of himself leaps to the top of the leaderboard: Rajon Rondo. Among the 79 active players who have appeared in at least 50 career playoff games, Rondo is the greatest PER improver in the playoffs. Draymond Green ranks second and Dirk Nowitzki third; those are the only three players whose playoff PER improved by at least one point relative to the regular season, though the likes of Lance Stephenson (plus-0.9), Kyrie Irving (plus-0.6), and James (plus-0.5) are close. Interestingly, Chris Paul, despite a few memorable postseason flameouts, has seen his PER nudge slightly upward in the playoffs (plus-0.1), and he’s one of just 15 players who can claim even the smallest sliver of improvement.

As a group, the 79-person sample has seen its PER drop by an average of 1.1 points, likely because facing stingier defenses on a nightly basis has limited efficiency. To that end, the negative end of the career playoff spectrum is mostly filled with role players who saw their output diminish against the league’s toughest defenses, though Kyle Lowry (minus-2.7), DeMar DeRozan (minus-1.9), and James Harden (minus-1.8) stand out because of their history of playoff shortcomings.

Because they stretch out over full careers rather than just one or two series, the PER differentials are flattened here, but like with the leaderboard tables up top, it’s useful when the numbers both confirm intuitive conclusions and provide new narrative points. We have hard evidence, now, that Playoff Rondo is real. So is Playoff Al, at least this year.

So, most players, even great ones, have their PER go down, because there are no cupcake opponents, and everyone is trying more on defense. Of 79 active players with decent playoff experience, only 15 have a higher career playoff PER than regular season PER, and Chris Paul is one. So, maybe, it's not purely his fault? Maybe his opposing teams have just been better than the combination of CP and CP's teammates?

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2018, 11:08:33 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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PER is so tied to usage and shot attempts I think that article is pretty pointless. Even when comparing a player to himself.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2018, 12:08:47 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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No. He is the 2nd best player all time. He may get alot of attention and praise, he deserves every bit of it even if I hate him for being a whiny cry baby.

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2018, 12:31:43 PM »

Offline ederson

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few days ago when BS  didn't get any votes in the coach association coach of the year vote people considered it (quite rightfully Imo) disrespectful .... And then went on to discuss whether LeBron James is overrated.....

Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2018, 12:41:00 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Kobe. He’s a top-15 player, but the hype machine had him neck and neck with Jordan. The only reason he has 5 titles is because Shaq carried him to three of them (and the refs gave him another).

With his talent he should have been even better, but he never trusted his teammates.

I think it's amazing how the hype machine has flipped the narrative on Kobe.  (But some of that is due to the fact the narrative on Shaq and Karl Malone has also somewhat changed).

Pre-2008:
*  Kobe is a selfish ball hog (like when the All-Star game was still somewhat serious and he waved off a pick from Karl Malone to go one-on-one with Jordan, so George Karl benched him).
*  Kobe is a terrible teammate, drove Shaq out of town, didn't get along with teammates, while Shaq was and continued to be everyone's favorite teammate.
*  Didn't invite any teammates to his wedding.
*  Terrible son/brother.  Parents and sisters didn't go to his wedding, sued his mother for cleaning out her own home after she'd been asking him for years to come get his stuff, etc.
*  Not coachable, made Phil Jackson quit.  Drove Rudy T. to either quit or get fired.
*  Couldn't lead the Lakers to the playoffs ('05), or out of the first round ('06-'07) as a one man show, while Shaq was still winning championships in Miami.
*  Constant stories of Kobe being selfish, a jerk, etc.
*  Rapist

Post-2008:
*  Shaq is lazy, Kobe is just a work horse who won't accept anything less than 100%.
*  Karl Malone is a scumbag rapist who hit on Kobe's wife.
*  Kobe's family were scumbags, didn't attend his wedding, tried to sell all his stuff.
*  Kobe's one of the greatest competitors of all time.
*  Constant stories of Kobe being a great teammate, leader, competitor

Now some of that is Kobe's own growth, but a lot of it is perception.  Like when Shaq was dominate, Kobe was the jerk and it was all his fault.  Kobe has the team to himself and not winning, see he's a slefish jerk, not a leader.  Kobe's now winning, and Shaq was no longer dominate, it was all Shaq's fault, Kobe's a great teammate and leader.

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Re: Is LeBron the Captain of the All Overrated team?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2018, 12:58:15 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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I don't know if Lebron is overrated since he has had so much success over a long period of time  with incredible stats. However, one narrative has always bothered my about Lebron and that is that he elevates his teammates; I just think that is totally untrue.

While he is clearly a leader on the court and one of the best 'Point Forwards' ever, I actually generally think other players decline when they play with Lebron (and improve when they leave). If you take this current version of the Cavs. Hill, Clarkson, Hood, and Nance Jr were all clearly better players before coming to CLE. Love put up bigger stats with Minny, but the team was also horrible so of course his numbers were going to take a hit. Korver has had some success, but I think it's because his role as a catch and shoot 3-point shooter is perfect in a Lebron system.

It's not that Lebron can't control a game - clearly he can - but unless you're a player with the ultimate confidence (see JR Smith), you can never really have success on a Lebron team if any part of your game depends on making moves with the ball - you just won't ever have that opportunity. He'll trust a player like Kyrie to take over part of the game, but everybody else just walks around on eggshells wondering when the time will come that he will yell at them.

Counterpoint: I somehow still know the name Daniel Gibson.