Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate

[gouki88]

Here's a question for everyone.  Who would you draft #1 if you were building a team from scratch for a 10 year run?  This isn't a Jordan or LeBron question.  You can pick any player you want.  Conditions are below.

- We are playing under modern rules with knowledge of advanced analytics.  All players are given a full off-season to prepare physically and mentally to the current game
- The league will be filled with your top 10 players of all-time.  The remaining talent will be a combination of 2nd tier all-stars and role players
- Your coach is Brad Stevens

I know this is a loaded question but let's have some fun with it.

Jeesh. I’d go with either Wilt, MJ or Bird.

Pros for Wilt: probably the most physically impressive player of all time. Simply unguardable inside. Can anchor a defence and led the league in assists once. One of the two best rebounders ever.

Pros for MJ: elite defensive guard, can score whenever he likes. Is a good playmaker, and elevates the play of all those he plays with.

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

Ultimately, there’s no way I’d pick LeBron. I feel like a team built around him would get smacked by a team built around one of these three

[Green-18]

Here's a question for everyone.  Who would you draft #1 if you were building a team from scratch for a 10 year run?  This isn't a Jordan or LeBron question.  You can pick any player you want.  Conditions are below.

- We are playing under modern rules with knowledge of advanced analytics.  All players are given a full off-season to prepare physically and mentally to the current game
- The league will be filled with your top 10 players of all-time.  The remaining talent will be a combination of 2nd tier all-stars and role players
- Your coach is Brad Stevens

I know this is a loaded question but let's have some fun with it.

Jeesh. I’d go with either Wilt, MJ or Bird.

Pros for Wilt: probably the most physically impressive player of all time. Simply unguardable inside. Can anchor a defence and led the league in assists once. One of the two best rebounders ever.

Pros for MJ: elite defensive guard, can score whenever he likes. Is a good playmaker, and elevates the play of all those he plays with.

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

Ultimately, there’s no way I’d pick LeBron. I feel like a team built around him would get smacked by a team built around one of these three

The value of Bird is definitely elevated under these conditions.  In a vacuum it's hard to pick against Jordan and LeBron as the top two players of all-time.  However, it's not as if Bird in his prime isn't on their level.  When you factor in team building it really changes the entire discussion.         

[gouki88]

Here's a question for everyone.  Who would you draft #1 if you were building a team from scratch for a 10 year run?  This isn't a Jordan or LeBron question.  You can pick any player you want.  Conditions are below.

- We are playing under modern rules with knowledge of advanced analytics.  All players are given a full off-season to prepare physically and mentally to the current game
- The league will be filled with your top 10 players of all-time.  The remaining talent will be a combination of 2nd tier all-stars and role players
- Your coach is Brad Stevens

I know this is a loaded question but let's have some fun with it.

Jeesh. I’d go with either Wilt, MJ or Bird.

Pros for Wilt: probably the most physically impressive player of all time. Simply unguardable inside. Can anchor a defence and led the league in assists once. One of the two best rebounders ever.

Pros for MJ: elite defensive guard, can score whenever he likes. Is a good playmaker, and elevates the play of all those he plays with.

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

Ultimately, there’s no way I’d pick LeBron. I feel like a team built around him would get smacked by a team built around one of these three

The value of Bird is definitely elevated under these conditions.  In a vacuum it's hard to pick against Jordan and LeBron as the top two players of all-time.  However, it's not as if Bird in his prime isn't on their level.  When you factor in team building it really changes the entire discussion.       

Especially with modern medicine. If Bird hadn’t begun to break down by the mid-late 80’s who knows what would’ve happened.

[TheisTheisBaby]

Here's a question for everyone.  Who would you draft #1 if you were building a team from scratch for a 10 year run?  This isn't a Jordan or LeBron question.  You can pick any player you want.  Conditions are below.

- We are playing under modern rules with knowledge of advanced analytics.  All players are given a full off-season to prepare physically and mentally to the current game
- The league will be filled with your top 10 players of all-time.  The remaining talent will be a combination of 2nd tier all-stars and role players
- Your coach is Brad Stevens

I know this is a random question but let's have some fun with it.

Larry Bird. 

[kidradical]

The conversation begins and ends with Bill Russell. Period. What every Jordan enthusiast always says over Lebron is 6 rings.  Bill had 11 out of 13! Playing against one of the greatest (offensively for sure) Centers of all time. How Bill Russell does not even factor in this discussion, on this blog, is baffling to me.  Basketball, as an institution does not value its history like, say baseball. It is sad.  He changed the game, he and Cous, created the modern NBA together. He made defense important and anyone who watches an NBA playoff game will see, Defense is what makes a winner.  He is like the Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson of the NBA.  Then, went on to win two as a player coach. It is shameful, people who know basketball do not shout his name from the rooftop.

[Celtics4ever]

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

it is a myth that Bird took a lot of threes back in the day.  He averaged 1.9  3PA per game.  Now the game has changed.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

[gouki88]

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

it is a myth that Bird took a lot of threes back in the day.  He averaged 1.9  3PA per game.  Now the game has changed.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

I meant modern emphasis on three point shooting. As in if Bird played today, he'd be one of the most prolific shooters from range ever.

[KGs Knee]

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

it is a myth that Bird took a lot of threes back in the day.  He averaged 1.9  3PA per game.  Now the game has changed.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

I meant modern emphasis on three point shooting. As in if Bird played today, he'd be one of the most prolific shooters from range ever.

Yeah, one has to think if Bird played today he would be a full time PF, and with his dribbling, passing, and shooting ability would be even more effective than he was in the 80's. You can bet he'd be taking at least 6-7 threes per game if he played today.

[celticsclay]

This notion that those Indiana teams were any good is just crazy nonsense.  Last year's Celtics were a much better team than those Pacers.  I don't think it was close.  Boston had better top end talent and better deeper bench.

What year are you talking about? I think the only year they met Jordan in the Conference Finals was 1998.  That was a pretty good team, winning 58 games.

They were top-5 on both sides of the ball. 108.4 ORtg (4th), 101.6 DRtg (5th).  Their point differential was quite a bit better than both this year’s and last year’s Celtics.

That '98 Indy team was absolutely better than last year's Celtics.  It was a really well constructed roster of players (mostly veterans) who each had a skill set or two that meshed well with others when taken as whole.  Miller, Mullin, Smits, Mark Jackson, the Davis boys, etc... 

With Bird coaching, that was a fun team and took Jordan to the limit in '98.

Thanks guys. Interesting fact about that 98 pacers team. They had players that made the hall of fame (though Mullin was only a role player at that point) and a total of 6 players that would play in an all-star game. They had two players in the all-star game that year (Smits, Miller). Dale Davis, Antonio Davis and Mark Jackson also made the all-star game at some point in their career (while Mullin made it repeatedly of course). Mark Jackson is still 4th all time in assists today.

To be honest, I am glad this comparison of our Celtics team from last year that started Gerald Green, Amir Johnson and others at various points in the series is staying on this forum cause we would be laughed off an NBA forum with the comparison. I mean crowder is as good as Smits? What?

Mullin hadn't been an all star in 5 seasons. It had been basically a decade since Mark Jackson made his only all star game.  Neither Davis had made the all star game at that point and Dale' s all star season was 10 ppg and 9.9 rpg while years later Antonio would make it at 13.7 ppg and 10.1 rpg (Antonio was an injury replacement). Those were their best seasons. They were role players (obviously Mullin had a mich higher peak but by then he was a role player). Good role players but role players none the less. Thay was Slots only all star game and he averaged 16.7 ppg and 6.9 rpg. Those 1.2 bpg and 1.4 apg clearly overshadowed his 1.8 tpg and 3.3 fpg.  Which brings us to Reggie Miller, the most overrated player in NBA history.  He couldn't oass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't defend.  He was a great shooter and that was it.  He was basically a no defense version of Klay Thompson.  Those Pacers teams are a mid tier, at best, playoff team today.

You got to learn when to take the l man.

do you honestly believe that team is better than the Wizards of the last couple of seasons? Bird is a better coach than Brooks no question but the actual roster is what I'm getting at.

You think the #2 seed that took Jordan to 7 games is worse than this year’s #8 seed?

He's got crowder as good as smits, the 8 seed this year as good as that pacers team cause of simulations... really off the rails

[gouki88]

Pros for Bird: the kind of player Brad Stevens could only dream of. With the emphasis on 3 point shooting, Bird would torch the whole league. Not to mention how much he would live at the line. Would be the best 4 of all time if he played in the modern era (assuming he’d play at PF, not SF)

it is a myth that Bird took a lot of threes back in the day.  He averaged 1.9  3PA per game.  Now the game has changed.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

I meant modern emphasis on three point shooting. As in if Bird played today, he'd be one of the most prolific shooters from range ever.

Yeah, one has to think if Bird played today he would be a full time PF, and with his dribbling, passing, and shooting ability would be even more effective than he was in the 80's. You can bet he'd be taking at least 6-7 threes per game if he played today.

He'd probably be averaging like, 35/10/7 on elite splits. Not to mention talking so much trash modern players would be in tears

[celticsclay]

Granted I didn't see him play in the 80's but really don't remember Jordan ever looking like Lebron did today in his prime.

[Roy H.]

Granted I didn't see him play in the 80's but really don't remember Jordan ever looking like Lebron did today in his prime.

In the playoffs the closest thing was probably in 1995, the year he came out of his baseball retirement. He was sluggish and had a couple pretty bad games.

[Celtics4ever]

Must have forgot his HGH shot yesterday...JK

[Moranis]

Granted I didn't see him play in the 80's but really don't remember Jordan ever looking like Lebron did today in his prime.

In the playoffs the closest thing was probably in 1995, the year he came out of his baseball retirement. He was sluggish and had a couple pretty bad games.

15 seasons in, Jordan wasn't even making the playoffs in Washington.  Yes I was kidding with that, but at age 33 (96-97), Jordan had quite a few stinker games in the playoffs for the Bulls.  In the ECF he had a 4 of 15 game, which a couple of games later he followed up with a 9 of 35.  The 9 of 35 was a closeout game the Bulls lost.  He had the back to back games against the Jazz in the Finals, which the Bulls lost where Jordan was 9 of 22 and then 11 of 27.  Heck even the game 6 close out game against the Jazz, Jordan was just 15 of 35 (though ended up with 39 because he had so many shots).  Excluding the 3 game 1st round, Jordan had as many games under 40% shooting as he had over 50% shooting.  This notion that Jordan was this monster that never was off in the playoffs just isn't true.  Now what is generally true, is Jordan would just keep on shooting (and was getting to the line a lot as well).  That 4 of 15 was the only 1 of his 19 playoff games where he had less than 20 shots that season.  That is what a scorer's mentality will do as Jordan was by and large not a facilitator and was a scorer.