Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate

[tarheelsxxiii]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above (6 rings in 6 appearances w/ 6 MVPs) and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite, two-way talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.   

[celticsclay]

What a bunch of BS. These writers need nerd stats to make a case for their idol. Lebron has had a easier road since his Miami days, and even then they only won two out of four, and one of those two because Ray Allen saved his butt. But during that time the east got weak, Boston was getting old, and no one was stepping up. Since return to Cleveland he's one for three. While it's impressive to get to the finals that many times on paper, they need to start looking at the full picture.

Jordan had to go through tough Cavs teams,NY teams,Detrioit teams, and Indy teams. An NBA with hand checking and a era that it wasn't unusual for a player to play both ways. And Centers that played in the pant and were walking block parties. How many Mutombos, Ewings,Robinsons are in the league right now? Jordan dunked on all those guys. Even got a finger wag in before it was taken away from the league.

I still take Jordan every day of the week with out even thinking about it.

Have you actually looked at those NY, Cleveland, and Indy teams.  Detroit was good for like the first title season, but then fell off the map.  I mean NY was Ewing (a HOFer, but not an all timer) and then a bunch of role players like Charles Oakley, Mark Jackson, John Starks, Greg Anthony, Anthony Mason, and a well past his prime Kiki Vandeweghe.  In other words, a pretty bad overall team.  Indiana never played Chicago in the playoffs, but the year MJ wasn't playing they made the ECF with this as their playoff rotation: Reggie Miller, Dale Davis, Derrick McKey, Vern Fleming, Rik Smits, Haywoode Workman, Byron Scott, Antonio Davis, and Sam Mitchell.  That team is awful for a Conference Finals team.  It might very well be the worst Conference Finals team ever. 

This notion that the 90's was a great era filled with great teams from top to bottom is just nonsense.  The 90's might very well be the worst decade the sport has ever seen (certainly on par with the 70's which is the only other decade that could be the worst).  The Bulls were a great team, an all time great team, but their competition was pretty weak both in the East and in the Finals after the first season (Seattle is the only other truly elite competition they played in any season).  I mean look at the Jazz.  Malone and Stockton great players, but the 3rd and 4th best players were Bryon Russell and Jeff Hornacek.  Greg Ostertag was their starting center.  Adam Keefe, Howard Eisley, and Shandon Anderson were in the playoff rotation.  That is a good team, but certainly not some great team that many make it out to be.

wow you overplayed your hand on that one. A lot. You have to look all the way back to... last year.. to find a worse conference finals team than that. We had 2 all-stars on our team. However, Thomas was an extreme liability on defense and played one full injury plagued game in the series. I love Horford, but neither of those guys is in Reggie Miller's class. 

Reggie Miller is obviously in the hall of fame and was a great player for many season. Smits was either an all-star or coming off an all-star season that year I am not sure which year you are referencing. Antonio Davis was also a very good player that made an allstar game in his career and was good for close to a double double most of his career. Dale Davis was also a highly rugged post player that had a very lengthy career and would also make an all-star game himself. These were all very solid to good players and I don't think the players starting for us as various points last year including Crowder, Amir Johnson, Gerald Green are in the same class as players like the Davis frontcourt...

Of all the things Lebron worshippers do, the weakest in my opinion is the constant effort to discredit these teams from other eras and pumping up an era were 3 of the top 6 players in one conference joined up on one team through free agency.

[celticsclay]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.

I agree with all of this Tars...

[tarheelsxxiii]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.

I agree with all of this Tars...

Solid.  I understand that it's necessarily subjective, but those are the qualities I weigh most heavily.  Beyond that, the top 5 is a toss-up for me -- Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Dunca, Shaq, LeBron all deserve consideration imo.  Who rounds out your top 5?   

[celticsclay]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.

I agree with all of this Tars...

Solid.  I understand that it's necessarily subjective, but those are the qualities I weigh most heavily.  Beyond that, the top 5 is a toss-up for me -- Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Dunca, Shaq, LeBron all deserve consideration imo.  Who rounds out your top 5?

I probably go Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Lebron/Kobe. I don't really get why Kareem doesn't get more love, maybe it is because he was a Laker and hated.

[KG Living Legend]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

 Thank you Tarheels. I see it like this. James will end up with the best Westbrook like career of all time. And he jumped around for 3 rings chasing rings. Lost 5 more.

 Give me a break. Jordan never lost.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.

I agree with all of this Tars...

Solid.  I understand that it's necessarily subjective, but those are the qualities I weigh most heavily.  Beyond that, the top 5 is a toss-up for me -- Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Dunca, Shaq, LeBron all deserve consideration imo.  Who rounds out your top 5?

I probably go Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Lebron/Kobe. I don't really get why Kareem doesn't get more love, maybe it is because he was a Laker and hated.

I could get on board with that top 5.  And I don't either.  Maybe because Magic seemed to influence a lot of his playoff success and championships.  But all in consideration had a sidekick or strong core.

[GratefulCs]

at least LarBrd33 was working on a jinx for his sixers love

jesus

[celticsclay]

Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

I can understand why some would consider Russell the GOAT. His 11 rings are impressive. But subjectively, I don't consider # of rings in isolation to be the barometer.  Jordan is the GOAT for 2 reasons imo: 1. He reached perfection w/ respect to the above and thus remains virtually untouchable; 2. In addition, he was an elite talent that carried his teams in all facets of the game.

As a long-time Celts fan, I disliked Jordan and didn't appreciate his greatness until years after he retired.  But on paper, he reached perfection at the highest level.  And importantly, he's the greatest competitor (to a fault) that has ever lived.

I agree with all of this Tars...

Solid.  I understand that it's necessarily subjective, but those are the qualities I weigh most heavily.  Beyond that, the top 5 is a toss-up for me -- Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Dunca, Shaq, LeBron all deserve consideration imo.  Who rounds out your top 5?

I probably go Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Lebron/Kobe. I don't really get why Kareem doesn't get more love, maybe it is because he was a Laker and hated.

I could get on board with that top 5.  And I don't either.  Maybe because Magic seemed to influence a lot of his playoff success and championships.  But all in consideration had a sidekick or strong core.

I will say that obviously Lebron could climb higher with more titles. I would give him a ton of credit he won the title this year with only 1 other all-star on his team as this was the kind of team Jordan won with.

[Celtics4ever]

The only people who think LeBron is better is media who want to say they covered the greatest.

I will say that obviously Lebron could climb higher with more titles.

Far more likely that is opposite will happen and he will be a great player who fell short like Wilt who was way more productive.  Heck, they did not even keep stats on stuff back then.

Its the winning that will be the knock on him.   He is one of the most productive players ever.

[droopdog7]

Realistically, James is the most complete player the game has ever seen.  I made the comment several weeks ago that if you had to build a team using just one player, the James team would beat any other, and I might not be close.  Dude would be a legit all star in any position 1-4, and probably hold his own as a center.  There is never been anything like him. 

Does that mean he's the GOAT?  Well, by one criteria I think it does.  Of course, there are other criteria with which to measure greatness.  But many of those are flawed as well.  How can people point to MJ's rings with a straight face when Bill Russell has almost twice as many?  And Robert Horry has seven!  Of course, people also show incredibly flawed logic when it comes to titles.  Somehow, lebron losing in the championship is better than MJ losing in earlier rounds (which is did plenty). 

People dismissing lebron as the GOAT are mostly haters.  It is a legitimate debate with no obvious answer (that what makes it a debate).

Having said all that, if I could have one player at their peak for one game, I probably still would take MJ  .

[KGs Knee]

Anybody who watched basketball in the 90's knows Jordan dominated the league to a far greater degree than LeBron ever has (except for Ohio fans who should know it better than anyone but won't admit it because they're LBJ homers). You knew if Jordan was playing, the Bulls we're winning the title and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Jordan could have very likely won at least 8 straight titles if he didn't retire the first time, and maybe even 9 or 10 straight if he didn't retire the 2nd time.

Jordan also had way tougher competition in the East for most of his career. The 80's Celtics and Pistons, and 90's Knicks, Pacers, Magic, and Heat would probably have beaten either of LeBron's Cavs teams (not the Miami teams).

LeBron is amazing. There's a very good chance he might go down as the 2nd best player of all-time (still not there yet), but he'll never catch Jordan, it's too late for that. LeBron has had to many failures and times where he wilted under pressure to ever be considered better than Jordan. Jordan didn't run off to team up with someone else when he initially couldn't get past the Pistons, he simply worked harder until he could.

[GC003332]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html

Chicago v Indiana 1998 Eastern Conference Finals

Not that it particularly matters.

[Donoghus]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html

Chicago v Indiana 1998 Eastern Conference Finals

Not that it particularly matters.

One of the more entertaining playoffs series I can remember. 

[moiso]

One thing to consider is that Jordan didn’t care about the GOAT stuff.  He did what he did and he did what came natural to him and did what he felt like doing.  Nobody who quits their profession in their prime is trying to be the greatest of all time at it.  Another thing nobody mentions is that Jordan may have improved from his peak level if he spent his time working on basketball skills.  We might not have seen Jordan’s peak level.  Does anyone think Lebron would be this good if he spent two of his prime years practicing bowling instead of working on his basketball skills? 

Lebron gets to go after Jordan and he’s doing everything his power to best him.  Going second is always an advantage in everything from running a mile to a breath holding competition.  Lebron is competing against someone who didn’t compete back at him.  Jordan spent a lot of time playing golf and gambling.  If he was in competition with Lebron, the Jordan we would have seen would have been much better.