Author Topic: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate  (Read 8828 times)

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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2018, 09:00:09 AM »

Offline Moranis

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What a bunch of BS. These writers need nerd stats to make a case for their idol. Lebron has had a easier road since his Miami days, and even then they only won two out of four, and one of those two because Ray Allen saved his butt. But during that time the east got weak, Boston was getting old, and no one was stepping up. Since return to Cleveland he's one for three. While it's impressive to get to the finals that many times on paper, they need to start looking at the full picture.

Jordan had to go through tough Cavs teams,NY teams,Detrioit teams, and Indy teams. An NBA with hand checking and a era that it wasn't unusual for a player to play both ways. And Centers that played in the pant and were walking block parties. How many Mutombos, Ewings,Robinsons are in the league right now? Jordan dunked on all those guys. Even got a finger wag in before it was taken away from the league.

I still take Jordan every day of the week with out even thinking about it.
Have you actually looked at those NY, Cleveland, and Indy teams.  Detroit was good for like the first title season, but then fell off the map.  I mean NY was Ewing (a HOFer, but not an all timer) and then a bunch of role players like Charles Oakley, Mark Jackson, John Starks, Greg Anthony, Anthony Mason, and a well past his prime Kiki Vandeweghe.  In other words, a pretty bad overall team.  Indiana never played Chicago in the playoffs, but the year MJ wasn't playing they made the ECF with this as their playoff rotation: Reggie Miller, Dale Davis, Derrick McKey, Vern Fleming, Rik Smits, Haywoode Workman, Byron Scott, Antonio Davis, and Sam Mitchell.  That team is awful for a Conference Finals team.  It might very well be the worst Conference Finals team ever. 

This notion that the 90's was a great era filled with great teams from top to bottom is just nonsense.  The 90's might very well be the worst decade the sport has ever seen (certainly on par with the 70's which is the only other decade that could be the worst).  The Bulls were a great team, an all time great team, but their competition was pretty weak both in the East and in the Finals after the first season (Seattle is the only other truly elite competition they played in any season).  I mean look at the Jazz.  Malone and Stockton great players, but the 3rd and 4th best players were Bryon Russell and Jeff Hornacek.  Greg Ostertag was their starting center.  Adam Keefe, Howard Eisley, and Shandon Anderson were in the playoff rotation.  That is a good team, but certainly not some great team that many make it out to be.
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2018, 09:00:43 AM »

Offline makaveli

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To me, the difference is maid with defense. Mike was a top defender throught his carrer, winning the DPOY once, but always one of the best. Lebron can be considered, but still, Mike has a firn adventage.
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2018, 09:13:12 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I don't think MJ is the GOAT. No matter how you look at it, there is not a single category in which he is the #1.

Except for career points per game?
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm pretty sure Wilt was better than MJ in this regard.
Jordan is slightly better.  30.12 to 30.07.
Fair enough. Do you guys believe MJ was a better scorer than Wilt? Cause I highly doubt it. I mean, the guy scored 100 points in one game. He finished the 1961/62 NBA season with an average of 50.4 points per game!

Different era, less teams, and he was a giant compared to most centers then. He just jumped over guys from a few feet out and dropped it in.

 Jordan dunked on guys like Wilt.
First of all, the "different era" had teams packing it inside and focusing on bigs, making it harder for Wilt to score since he was focused on every single game. Secondly, less teams=more stacked teams, it's an argument FOR Wilt lol since he was up against better teams. Finally, you should look up at other great centers during Wilt's career before saying he "towered over guys". Here's a bonus: Jordan would get killed if Wilt ever tried fouling him ala the Pistons, much less dunk on him. I agree with you that Jordan is probably "better" at Wilt in scoring due to having a wider array of moves, especially outside, but don't discredit the Big Dipper. If he had 6 rings (very much possible if Russell wasn't that clutch) he'd be the undisputed GOAT.
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2018, 09:19:18 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I don't think MJ is the GOAT. No matter how you look at it, there is not a single category in which he is the #1.

Except for career points per game?
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm pretty sure Wilt was better than MJ in this regard.
Jordan is slightly better.  30.12 to 30.07.
Fair enough. Do you guys believe MJ was a better scorer than Wilt? Cause I highly doubt it. I mean, the guy scored 100 points in one game. He finished the 1961/62 NBA season with an average of 50.4 points per game!

Different era, less teams, and he was a giant compared to most centers then. He just jumped over guys from a few feet out and dropped it in.

 Jordan dunked on guys like Wilt.
First of all, the "different era" had teams packing it inside and focusing on bigs, making it harder for Wilt to score since he was focused on every single game. Secondly, less teams=more stacked teams, it's an argument FOR Wilt lol since he was up against better teams. Finally, you should look up at other great centers during Wilt's career before saying he "towered over guys". Here's a bonus: Jordan would get killed if Wilt ever tried fouling him ala the Pistons, much less dunk on him. I agree with you that Jordan is probably "better" at Wilt in scoring due to having a wider array of moves, but don't discredit the Big Dipper. If he had 6 rings (very much possible if Russell wasn't that clutch) he'd be the undisputed GOAT.

At the same time, Wilt was an absolute genetic freak.  He was like a modern player playing against 50s and 60s teams.  Yes, teams packed the paint, but the majority of defenders simply weren't in Wilt's class physically. 

Athletes like Wilt and Russell were definitely the exception.  It's like if you transported David Robinson back in time. 


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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2018, 09:20:20 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I don't think MJ is the GOAT. No matter how you look at it, there is not a single category in which he is the #1.

Except for career points per game?
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm pretty sure Wilt was better than MJ in this regard.
Jordan is slightly better.  30.12 to 30.07.
Fair enough. Do you guys believe MJ was a better scorer than Wilt? Cause I highly doubt it. I mean, the guy scored 100 points in one game. He finished the 1961/62 NBA season with an average of 50.4 points per game!

Different era, less teams, and he was a giant compared to most centers then. He just jumped over guys from a few feet out and dropped it in.

 Jordan dunked on guys like Wilt.
First of all, the "different era" had teams packing it inside and focusing on bigs, making it harder for Wilt to score since he was focused on every single game. Secondly, less teams=more stacked teams, it's an argument FOR Wilt lol since he was up against better teams. Finally, you should look up at other great centers during Wilt's career before saying he "towered over guys". Here's a bonus: Jordan would get killed if Wilt ever tried fouling him ala the Pistons, much less dunk on him. I agree with you that Jordan is probably "better" at Wilt in scoring due to having a wider array of moves, but don't discredit the Big Dipper. If he had 6 rings (very much possible if Russell wasn't that clutch) he'd be the undisputed GOAT.

At the same time, Wilt was an absolute genetic freak.  He was like a modern player playing against 50s and 60s teams.  Yes, teams packed the paint, but the majority of defenders simply weren't in Wilt's class physically. 

Athletes like Wilt and Russell were definitely the exception.  It's like if you transported David Robinson back in time.
I believe I said look up at other great centers during Wilt's career. They were all freaks as well. It was not to the point where it was a one sided boxing match.
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 09:26:31 AM »

Offline GC003332

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To me, the difference is maid with defense. Mike was a top defender throught his carrer, winning the DPOY once, but always one of the best. Lebron can be considered, but still, Mike has a firn adventage.
TP

Along with DPOY

Jordan was NBA first team on defense 9 times in his career
James has been NBA first team on defense 5 times , second team once

Jordan always bought into playing defense . He had too much pride to get lit up on the defensive end.



« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 10:02:57 AM by GC003332 »

Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2018, 09:36:19 AM »

Offline footey

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James will never catch Jordan in:
- number of rings
- number of Finals MVPs
- 3-peats

What he CAN do is
- win a ring with 3 different teams
- keep moving up in statistical categories

IMO, James currently in the top-5 all-time.  Whether he is ever GOAT remains to be seen but I doubt it.

Yes, but Jordan will never catch Bill Russell, so I guess Jordan isn't the greatest either.

Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2018, 09:42:07 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I don't think MJ is the GOAT. No matter how you look at it, there is not a single category in which he is the #1.

Except for career points per game?
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm pretty sure Wilt was better than MJ in this regard.
Jordan is slightly better.  30.12 to 30.07.
Fair enough. Do you guys believe MJ was a better scorer than Wilt? Cause I highly doubt it. I mean, the guy scored 100 points in one game. He finished the 1961/62 NBA season with an average of 50.4 points per game!

Different era, less teams, and he was a giant compared to most centers then. He just jumped over guys from a few feet out and dropped it in.

 Jordan dunked on guys like Wilt.
First of all, the "different era" had teams packing it inside and focusing on bigs, making it harder for Wilt to score since he was focused on every single game. Secondly, less teams=more stacked teams, it's an argument FOR Wilt lol since he was up against better teams. Finally, you should look up at other great centers during Wilt's career before saying he "towered over guys". Here's a bonus: Jordan would get killed if Wilt ever tried fouling him ala the Pistons, much less dunk on him. I agree with you that Jordan is probably "better" at Wilt in scoring due to having a wider array of moves, but don't discredit the Big Dipper. If he had 6 rings (very much possible if Russell wasn't that clutch) he'd be the undisputed GOAT.

At the same time, Wilt was an absolute genetic freak.  He was like a modern player playing against 50s and 60s teams.  Yes, teams packed the paint, but the majority of defenders simply weren't in Wilt's class physically. 

Athletes like Wilt and Russell were definitely the exception.  It's like if you transported David Robinson back in time.
I believe I said look up at other great centers during Wilt's career. They were all freaks as well. It was not to the point where it was a one sided boxing match.

How many of those guys could have played in the modern NBA, without adjustment?  Wilt, Russell, and who else?

Let's look at the big men on the other teams in the league.

Chicago:  Walt Bellamy, 6'11", 215 pounds.  Nobody else above 6'8" on the roster.

Syracuse:  Red Kerr, 6'9", 230 pounds.

New York:  Phil Jordon, 6'10", 205 pounds

LA:  Jim Krebs, 6'8", 230 pounds

Cincinnati:  Wayne Embry, 6'8", 240 pounds

Detroit:  Walter Dukes, 7'0", 220 pounds

St. Louis:  Clyde Lovellette, 6'9", 234 pounds

Compare that to Wilt:  7'1", 275 pounds

Yes, it indeed was a one-sided boxing match against most of the competition.  Even the talented centers like Bellamy and Lovellette were giving up 4 inches and 40 pounds to Wilt.  Again, it's the equivalent of dropping David Robinson into the 60s.  He's not the best player of all-time (although he's great), but he sure would have looked like it in the 60s.

Credit Wilt:  he is one of the very, very few players -- across all sports -- that you could drop into the modern era and he'd still be a dominant force.  Instead of scoring 50+ points in a season, though, he'd probably be looking at 35, and instead of 100 points in a game he might be looking at 75.



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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2018, 10:14:22 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Wilt was definitely a physical freak, but he also worked at his body far more than most of his contemporaries.  He lifted weights, he ran, he worked out all off season (around the partying of course).  He was going toe to toe with Arnold in power lifting when he was in 50's.  Wilt was born with physical gifts, but he also enhanced them and was ahead of his time in that regard (much like Tiger Woods was with weight training in golf). 
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2018, 11:31:16 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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Imho, 6 time Finals MVP + 6-for-6 champion trumps all other statistics.

If this is your metric for determining the GOAT, Bill Russell wins (11 rings).  There were no Finals MVP awards until 1969 but if it existed, I am sure Russell would have won a few.

Not disagreeing that there is a case for Jordan as GOAT but I don't see it as being as binary as you are making it.

Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2018, 12:09:02 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Wilt was definitely a physical freak, but he also worked at his body far more than most of his contemporaries.  He lifted weights, he ran, he worked out all off season (around the partying of course).  He was going toe to toe with Arnold in power lifting when he was in 50's.  Wilt was born with physical gifts, but he also enhanced them and was ahead of his time in that regard (much like Tiger Woods was with weight training in golf).

Oh, no doubt. He definitely enhanced his tremendous gifts.

 I don’t even know what a modern-day equivalent would look like, relative to the rest of the league. A 7’4” David Robinson with a better passing touch?


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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:53 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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James will never catch Jordan in:
- number of rings
- number of Finals MVPs
- 3-peats

What he CAN do is
- win a ring with 3 different teams
- keep moving up in statistical categories

IMO, James currently in the top-5 all-time.  Whether he is ever GOAT remains to be seen but I doubt it.

Yes, but Jordan will never catch Bill Russell, so I guess Jordan isn't the greatest either.
I hear your sarcasm (I hope!).  Funny thing is, I had Russell as GOAT for many years based mostly on 11 chips in 13 years, but this whole debate has me re-thinking that as the main thing.

Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2018, 12:12:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Wilt was definitely a physical freak, but he also worked at his body far more than most of his contemporaries.  He lifted weights, he ran, he worked out all off season (around the partying of course).  He was going toe to toe with Arnold in power lifting when he was in 50's.  Wilt was born with physical gifts, but he also enhanced them and was ahead of his time in that regard (much like Tiger Woods was with weight training in golf).

Oh, no doubt. He definitely enhanced his tremendous gifts.

 I don’t even know what a modern-day equivalent would look like, relative to the rest of the league. A 7’4” David Robinson with a better passing touch?
Lebron is the guy I most point to as a physical specimen in the vein of Wilt, though obviously Lebron doesn't have the height Wilt did, but he certainly is the same level of physical specimen as compared to his peers.
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Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2018, 12:41:27 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Jordan. The end.

cosigned. Why does the media try so hard to jam this down our throat.... call us when Lebron has a few more titles. Jordan literally tried a new sport cause he was dominated the sport so bad and then came back and dominated 3 more years.

Re: Interesting Statistical look at the Jordan vs. James G.O.A.T. debate
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2018, 12:45:31 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I don't think MJ is the GOAT. No matter how you look at it, there is not a single category in which he is the #1.

Except for career points per game?
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm pretty sure Wilt was better than MJ in this regard.
Jordan is slightly better.  30.12 to 30.07.
Fair enough. Do you guys believe MJ was a better scorer than Wilt? Cause I highly doubt it. I mean, the guy scored 100 points in one game. He finished the 1961/62 NBA season with an average of 50.4 points per game!

Different era, less teams, and he was a giant compared to most centers then. He just jumped over guys from a few feet out and dropped it in.

 Jordan dunked on guys like Wilt.
Lol, Jordan never dunked on guys like Wilt because there has never been an athlete of Wilt's caliber in the NBA since Wilt. Wilt would wreck MJ.

And MJ towers over LeBron
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