Author Topic: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron  (Read 2300 times)

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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »

Offline Green-18

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2.  His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami.  LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series.  He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.


I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.

Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.

That's part of my problem with him, as well.  He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year.  Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.

If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.

All valid points.  However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT.  The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride.  It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State?  At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances.  I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.   

Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time.  Yes.  Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him.  I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams. 

Give me Bird or Magic any day.  At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2018, 12:36:24 PM »

Offline footey

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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.

As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.

I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose.  I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
why though?  The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well.  The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs.  They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively.  Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams.  The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series).  James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East.  That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.

Interesting.  Assuming Celtics get by the Sixers (am taking nothing for granted), how do you see the Cavs-Celtics playing out? Cavs in 6?  What would your strategy be against Lebron?  Single coverage with multiple bodies, and cover the 3 point line, similar to vs the Sixers? 

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2018, 12:41:24 PM »

Offline colincb

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The problem isn't Lebron's matchup for TOR, it's Toronto's psychological makeup. In the last 5 seasons, they've been a top 4 seed 5 times:

- Lost twice in the first round (Nets and Wizards), twice in the second, and once in the ECF.

- Swept 3 times including once in the first round. Have never swept or won in 5 games.

- Struggle against lower seeds with 3 eliminations. Have never beat a higher seed.



If they were the Cs, we'd be ripped with that record.
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2018, 12:47:10 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

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I think part of it is in the DNA of being a Celtics Fan. We tend to love the Grit & Grind, being the underdog, play above expectations and succeeding.  Lebron used to seem the polar opposite right from the start. Being considered the "King" before even stepping on an NBA court.  That type of thing rubs most Celtics Fans the wrong way (even if he was going to be a Celtic, fans would be turned off from that).  It is hard to come back from that. That coupled with the shrinking in major NBA moments and then the decision stuff is enough to make most Celtics Fans biased against him not matter what he ever did on the court. Personally, it took me forever to get past all of that. Lebron has changed his game and grown and we are not witnessing his best year ever I believe. His shot was always suspect and would almost count on clutch shots missing. We are now at the point where it is not suspect and it is terrifying seeing him shoot a game winning shot.  I get what the OP is saying, there is something where I just havent enjoyed watching him play, but for a lot of years it was just the natural bias against him and the style.
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2018, 12:48:10 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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2.  His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami.  LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series.  He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.


I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.

Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.

That's part of my problem with him, as well.  He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year.  Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.

If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.

All valid points.  However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT.  The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride.  It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State?  At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances.  I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.   

Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time.  Yes.  Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him.  I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams. 

Give me Bird or Magic any day.  At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.

Your argument about not having a signature Finals moment, other than the block, is a bit unfair. My Finals moment for Michael Jordan is probably his push off against Russell when they faced Utah. Other than that, all of the other big shots to end games in the Finals came for the point guards.

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2018, 12:50:27 PM »

Offline rollie mass

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I struggle wit Lebron because he lots like he was built with steroids
No facts but he looks artificial and he is going to burst.

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2018, 12:53:17 PM »

Offline Moranis

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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.

As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.

I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose.  I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
why though?  The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well.  The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs.  They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively.  Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams.  The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series).  James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East.  That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.

Interesting.  Assuming Celtics get by the Sixers (am taking nothing for granted), how do you see the Cavs-Celtics playing out? Cavs in 6?  What would your strategy be against Lebron?  Single coverage with multiple bodies, and cover the 3 point line, similar to vs the Sixers?
I would predict the Cavs in 6 (games 1, 3, 4, and 6 to Cleveland with 2 and 5 to Boston), but wouldn't be overly surprised if Boston pulled it out.  I'd start with size on Lebron and try to deny him the paint, because that is when he really gets going.  So I'd probably go with Tatum and Horford to start on him, giving him different looks each time down the floor to try and confuse him.  If he starts hitting from outside, I'd switch Brown on him and try to force him into double teams in the paint.  Any time Morris was in, I'd have him on James to try and get a bit physical with him and in his head more.  On the offensive side, I'd go to James' man as much as possible as I would want to wear him down.  James is still a great defender, but he can't go full bore on both ends of the floor for a full game, so I'd just try to make him work as much as possible defensively.

At the end of the day, James is BY FAR the best player in the series, so Boston won't stop him, but just making him work on both ends of the floor hopefully he wears down a bit and doesn't shoot quite as well, leaving the door open for Boston to win a couple of games late, when Stevens vs. Lue will actually matter.

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2018, 01:16:08 PM »

Offline colincb

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Quote
DeMar DeRozan's worst plus/minus performances of the 2017-18 season

1. Game 4 vs. Cavs: minus-29
2. Game 3 vs. Cavs: minus-23
3. Game 2 vs. Cavs: minus-22
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2018, 01:24:55 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2018, 01:45:41 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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why though?  The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well.  The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs.  They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively.  Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams.  The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series).  James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East.  That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.


Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying.  You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."

I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter.  Clearly that was silly.
No I'm saying the Raptors weakest position is small forward.  Take the Celtics, we can throw Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford, etc. against Lebron defensively.  That gives us a number of different looks and a number of ways to defend him.  Lebron is obviously a great player and he is never easy to defend, but Boston, unlike Toronto, actually has players capable of at least making him work for it.

Who did the Pacers have at small forward? Bojan Bogdanovic?
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2018, 01:55:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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why though?  The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well.  The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs.  They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively.  Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams.  The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series).  James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East.  That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.


Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying.  You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."

I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter.  Clearly that was silly.
No I'm saying the Raptors weakest position is small forward.  Take the Celtics, we can throw Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford, etc. against Lebron defensively.  That gives us a number of different looks and a number of ways to defend him.  Lebron is obviously a great player and he is never easy to defend, but Boston, unlike Toronto, actually has players capable of at least making him work for it.

Who did the Pacers have at small forward? Bojan Bogdanovic?
Young and Stephenson were on James most of the time.  Bojan was generally guarding shooters like Korver.

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2018, 02:55:57 PM »

Offline cltc5

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This is a league problem.  They construct the narrative and few people care to or acknowledge that it happens.  It’ll be golden state vs Cleveland.  Doesn’t matter how sucky either is, they both have the star power.  Next year if lebron is out west the story will be lebron vs golden state and the east will be the revenge of the Celtics.  The good new is as long as the Celtics are the darlings, they’ll be in the finals and probably win one.  Sadly,  this is not what basketball is about.  It’s about the best on that given night.  The pacers shoulda probably beat the Cavs and Boston shoulda swept the sixers, but money talks and that’s the point of the NBA until lebron leaves...which cant happens soon enough.  I could appreciate him more if he played the game with some integrity. 

Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2018, 03:55:53 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Young and Stephenson were on James most of the time.  Bojan was generally guarding shooters like Korver.

Well, I'd say that your theory is about to be put to the test, assuming the Celts take care of business with Philadelphia.
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 04:01:26 PM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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Following NBA basketball with Lebron James is like following NASCAR when there's one particular car that's faster, accelerates better, and somehow never breaks down year after year after year. That would get boring too.

One thing that younger people might not realize is that Lebron wasn't always quite like this. Coming into the league he was a great talent and extremely physically gifted, but not like this. He has changed over time. The dude is now 33, just led the entire league in minutes played (and basically doesn't come off the floor in the playoffs), and mysteriously is the most athletic player on every court he graces, even while playing among the best conditioned athletes on the planet.

Most of why I don't enjoy watching him play is the same reason why sports has lost some of its luster as I've gotten older. There is so much money at stake now that nothing hasn't been dirtied. Every major media outlet has a stake in the Lebron empire, they are all at the teat. Similarly, there is no monetary incentive whatsoever for the league office to improve drug testing, given that its superstars are performing at near superhuman levels. To get serious would end the spectacle.

It's not just basketball, of course. Al Jazeera, which has nothing to do with sports (and is thus insulated from the corrupting influence of sports revenues in its journalism) discovered HGH being mailed to Peyton Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning had just set the single season touchdown record at age 37, a year after having two vertebrae in his neck fused together and people wondering if he'd ever play again. The dominant story in the news media? That Al Jazeera lacks credibility, that this was a smear job and an invasion of privacy, and that Manning is telling the truth. Nothing to see here.

Do I know for sure that something's amiss with Lebron, or for that matter Westbrook, or Giannis, or countless other guys? No. I also don't know for sure that there's something fishy about NBA officiating. All I know is that a crooked ref some years ago, who was eventually put in prison for betting on and rigging games, suspiciously made hundreds of phone calls at curious times to another referee, and that this other referee is universally derided by players for how bad he is, and yet this other referee somehow ends up officiating key games in the playoffs when lots of revenue is riding on whether or not the series can be extended.

Maybe I'm being unfair to Lebron in particular, but in some ways I feel he is emblematic of how our culture has changed. He is the antithesis of Bill Russell in almost every sense, a perennial winner and fierce competitor who was dwarfed in stature by Wilt, yet remained keenly focused on team basketball and won a championship in [dang] near every season he played. All of the principles embodied by Russell's career are absent with Lebron, who barely pays lip service to the concept of the team, who scorches the earth everywhere he goes before moving on somewhere else, and talks endlessly about his personal legacy.

Ok, I'm done.
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Re: A Theory on Why I Struggle To Enjoy Watching LeBron
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2018, 04:50:35 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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So basically what you're saying is you don't like him because he's good.  I mean, that happens to pretty much all great players.