Author Topic: W. Carter's mom: free Duke education is the equivalent of African slavery  (Read 2195 times)

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Offline gouki88

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Just stop, people.  Comparisons to Nazi Germany and slavery are way too common, and make people sound stupid.

Here's Wendall Carter's mom, complaining about a free ride to a top-10ish university:

Quote
"When you remove all the bling and the bells and the sneakers and all that," she said, "you've paid for a child to come to your school to do what you wanted them to do for you, for free, and you made a lot of money when he did that, and you've got all these rules in place that say he cannot share in any of that. The only other time when labor does not get paid but yet someone else gets profits and the labor is black and the profit is white, is in slavery.

"To be honest with you," she said, "it's nauseating."

Free education, room and board, at a place that you choose, setting you up to become a millionaire.  That sounds exactly like being ripped from your home, put into chains and subjected to forced labor, rape, and beatings with literally no individual freedoms.

This is about the NCAA and your title is misleading.
Not really misleading. What she said was moronic

Offline Vermont Green

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I don't think Ms. Carter's comments are especially representative of the feelings of very many Americans no matter what race or political leaning.  But the problem with today's political atmosphere, Rush Limbaugh for example will take these comments, sell them as what all liberals believe, and use them to rile up a base who just eats these things up.

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Just stop, people.  Comparisons to Nazi Germany and slavery are way too common, and make people sound stupid.

Here's Wendall Carter's mom, complaining about a free ride to a top-10ish university:

Quote
"When you remove all the bling and the bells and the sneakers and all that," she said, "you've paid for a child to come to your school to do what you wanted them to do for you, for free, and you made a lot of money when he did that, and you've got all these rules in place that say he cannot share in any of that. The only other time when labor does not get paid but yet someone else gets profits and the labor is black and the profit is white, is in slavery.

"To be honest with you," she said, "it's nauseating."

Free education, room and board, at a place that you choose, setting you up to become a millionaire.  That sounds exactly like being ripped from your home, put into chains and subjected to forced labor, rape, and beatings with literally no individual freedoms.

This is about the NCAA and your title is misleading.

How so? She’s talking about her son and the school he attended, and comparing his situation to slavery. 

It’s a stupid comparison which shows zero appreciation for what the actual ancestors of many players suffered through. Education / celebrity vs. grueling labor / beatings, murders, rapes / dehumanization.

They’re not close in terms of human suffering. Being Big Man On Campus versus the worst human conditions imaginable.


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Offline libermaniac

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I don't think Ms. Carter's comments are especially representative of the feelings of very many Americans no matter what race or political leaning.  But the problem with today's political atmosphere, Rush Limbaugh for example will take these comments, sell them as what all liberals believe, and use them to rile up a base who just eats these things up.

You made my point more concisely and more effectively than I did earlier.  TP

Offline Big333223

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.

Read his next sentence.

Expecting compensation above and beyond tuition, room and board, travel, etc. can be considered greedy, especially when noting that tuition alone doesn’t pay for all the benefits students receive. 

If you participate in the college system, there are trade offs. You’re trading monetary compensation for a cushy celebrity lifestyle that is a launching pad to a basketball career.

Carter is always welcome to go seek fame and fortune in the Balkan League.


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Offline libermaniac

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
The cost of a free education can exceed $60 - $70K per year.  It's not like they are working for "free".  Expecting to be compensated over and above that is downright selfish, IMO.  Anyone who doesn't value that free education is so uneducated in the first place, it's a lost cause.

Offline indeedproceed

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Seems kind of like double dipping what some of you guys are considering 'benefits'.

You get room, board, and tuition. Travel? The school will pay for you to travel to games, like they would any other athlete of any other sport. 'Celebrity lifestyle'? Is that tax deductible? Is a fan's adoration a write off for the school?

Top level basketball players are barred from making a middle-class income domestically by a set of rules that favors a system that relies on unpaid labor. That unpaid labor in turn rewards the NBA by giving the league a free year of scouting before committing millions to a first round draft pick.

I think it is hyperbolic to compare it to slavery. But it's disingenuous to pretend it is a fair transaction. The athletic time commitments for many sports makes keeping a traditional academic schedule nearly impossible, and makes student athletes who actually emphasize the 'student' aspect of college some of the hardest working people in academics. But for top level money-making programs it is impossible to have a traditional academic experience. And people kvetch and complain about 'fake courses' and doctored grades but what do they expect? It's all a sham. The people who get a real degree and compete at a high level in the tops schools in D1 basketball and football are the outliers.

All that said, I don't think college sports are the problem by any means. The age limit imposed by the NBA is the problem, that allows the whole system to work.

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
the vast majority of college athletes don’t have a problem with their compensation. So where do you get this “the compensation isn’t fair” argument from? “$50,000/yr scholarship, free living free food free gym free books isn’t enough.. WE WANT MORE

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Seems kind of like double dipping what some of you guys are considering 'benefits'.

You get room, board, and tuition. Travel? The school will pay for you to travel to games, like they would any other athlete of any other sport. 'Celebrity lifestyle'? Is that tax deductible? Is a fan's adoration a write off for the school?

Top level basketball players are barred from making a middle-class income domestically by a set of rules that favors a system that relies on unpaid labor. That unpaid labor in turn rewards the NBA by giving the league a free year of scouting before committing millions to a first round draft pick.

I think it is hyperbolic to compare it to slavery. But it's disingenuous to pretend it is a fair transaction. The athletic time commitments for many sports makes keeping a traditional academic schedule nearly impossible, and makes student athletes who actually emphasize the 'student' aspect of college some of the hardest working people in academics. But for top level money-making programs it is impossible to have a traditional academic experience. And people kvetch and complain about 'fake courses' and doctored grades but what do they expect? It's all a sham. The people who get a real degree and compete at a high level in the tops schools in D1 basketball and football are the outliers.

All that said, I don't think college sports are the problem by any means. The age limit imposed by the NBA is the problem, that allows the whole system to work.
”unpaid labor”

Define labor. It isn’t bouncing a ball for 20 minutes a week.  define unpaid when the students get paid $50,000/yr tuition from the athletic scholarship and free rooms.

Online bdm860

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
The cost of a free education can exceed $60 - $70K per year.  It's not like they are working for "free".  Expecting to be compensated over and above that is downright selfish, IMO.  Anyone who doesn't value that free education is so uneducated in the first place, it's a lost cause.

While these athletes are getting benefits (the cushy celebrity lifestyle that is a launching pad to a basketball career), I strongly disagree with the notion that the education is a $50k+ annual value for the small percentage of scholarship athletes that have playing professional as a goal.   Also the sticker price of tuiton =/= cost =/= value.  For potential pro-athletes, I think the education has little to no value, whether they decided to take advantage of it or not.

Since, we're talking about Duke, I think of guys like William Avery, played 2 years at Duke, 3 years in the NBA, 10+ years overseas, retiring from basketball in 2012 at 33.  Those 2 years at Duke aren't going to help get him a job now that he's retired from the game.  He'd also be so far removed from school, if he decided to continue his education after retiring, his credits probably would have expired/won't transfer.

But even if you got a degree by staying 4 years in college or continuing your education after you went pro, the degree/education isn't going to hold much value when you've chased your professional career for 10, 15, 20 years.  Daniel Ewing, 4 years at Duke, 2 years in the NBA, still playing overseas after 10+ years I believe.  Whenever he decides to hang up his sneakers, that degree from Duke in whatever he studied, isn't going to help him get a job, not when there's a 15 year gap on his resume (although that Duke alumni network might help), ask the stay-at-home parents who try to re-join the workforce after 15 years out of it.

For athletes who don't go pro, and have to start a "real world" career after graduating, that free education is an amazing benefit (especially at the better schools).

But for the small percentage of pro athletes who will be chasing that pro career for the next 10-20 years of their life (like Wendell Carter probably will), that education isn't really providing much value.

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Offline KGs Knee

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
the vast majority of college athletes don’t have a problem with their compensation. So where do you get this “the compensation isn’t fair” argument from? “$50,000/yr scholarship, free living free food free gym free books isn’t enough.. WE WANT MORE

When you consider how much money the top athletes bring for these programs by their mere presence, yes they absolutely deserve a lot more compensation than they recieve.

And they would get it if they didn't have to go to college (or find some other of avenue that won't provide them with nearly the exposure that college does). Football is even worse, these kids have to wait three years before they can enter the NFL.

Colleges should either be able to straight up pay players whatever the players are capable of negotiating for themselves. But since that will never happen the NBA/NFL should simply let players go pro at 18.

The bottom line is the top athletes ARE getting an unfair deal.

Offline indeedproceed

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Seems kind of like double dipping what some of you guys are considering 'benefits'.

You get room, board, and tuition. Travel? The school will pay for you to travel to games, like they would any other athlete of any other sport. 'Celebrity lifestyle'? Is that tax deductible? Is a fan's adoration a write off for the school?

Top level basketball players are barred from making a middle-class income domestically by a set of rules that favors a system that relies on unpaid labor. That unpaid labor in turn rewards the NBA by giving the league a free year of scouting before committing millions to a first round draft pick.

I think it is hyperbolic to compare it to slavery. But it's disingenuous to pretend it is a fair transaction. The athletic time commitments for many sports makes keeping a traditional academic schedule nearly impossible, and makes student athletes who actually emphasize the 'student' aspect of college some of the hardest working people in academics. But for top level money-making programs it is impossible to have a traditional academic experience. And people kvetch and complain about 'fake courses' and doctored grades but what do they expect? It's all a sham. The people who get a real degree and compete at a high level in the tops schools in D1 basketball and football are the outliers.

All that said, I don't think college sports are the problem by any means. The age limit imposed by the NBA is the problem, that allows the whole system to work.
”unpaid labor”

Define labor. It isn’t bouncing a ball for 20 minutes a week.  define unpaid when the students get paid $50,000/yr tuition from the athletic scholarship and free rooms.

Bouncing a ball for 20 minutes a week? Come on. NCAA athletes spend at least 25-30 hours per week practicing, doing film sessions, mandatory workouts, on top of that they often have mandatory public appearances, plus theoretically they're getting an education, which means 12-18 hours of class and if you're doing it right, another 12+ hours of outside classroom work weekly at least.

On top of that you have games where you're flying at all hours of the night, often on weekdays when you're expected to be at class the next morning. Actually being a student and an elite level athlete is grueling for any collegiate sport. Actually being a NBA level prospect at a top college school and being a full time student is a fantasy.

But 'a free education' is included. Come on.

Unpaid labor means they don't pay them money for their services. There have been many institutions over the years who have tried to compensate employees with free room and board, unreasonable work hours, strict arbitrary rules that are inconsistently enforced, and justified that they things they learned while under their care were compensation enough for their contributions.

I'm just saying, comparing actual slavery to student athletes is ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously. But it's also not hard to do.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Online CelticsElite

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Don't forget that these athletes would be nothing without the fans (students and alum) paying for tickets.  To me, expecting to be paid is narrow-minded and selfish. The profit from athletics helps to keep tuition costs down.  Obviously these athletes don't care about that.  It's all about me, me, me.  And, any athlete who has the viewpoint probably won't value a free education anyway.

lol What?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin to respond to something this backwards. Like, it's selfish to expect to be compensated fairly for work performed? That is a bold stance, indeed.
The cost of a free education can exceed $60 - $70K per year.  It's not like they are working for "free".  Expecting to be compensated over and above that is downright selfish, IMO.  Anyone who doesn't value that free education is so uneducated in the first place, it's a lost cause.

While these athletes are getting benefits (the cushy celebrity lifestyle that is a launching pad to a basketball career), I strongly disagree with the notion that the education is a $50k+ annual value for the small percentage of scholarship athletes that have playing professional as a goal.   Also the sticker price of tuiton =/= cost =/= value.  For potential pro-athletes, I think the education has little to no value, whether they decided to take advantage of it or not.

Since, we're talking about Duke, I think of guys like William Avery, played 2 years at Duke, 3 years in the NBA, 10+ years overseas, retiring from basketball in 2012 at 33.  Those 2 years at Duke aren't going to help get him a job now that he's retired from the game.  He'd also be so far removed from school, if he decided to continue his education after retiring, his credits probably would have expired/won't transfer.

But even if you got a degree by staying 4 years in college or continuing your education after you went pro, the degree/education isn't going to hold much value when you've chased your professional career for 10, 15, 20 years.  Daniel Ewing, 4 years at Duke, 2 years in the NBA, still playing overseas after 10+ years I believe.  Whenever he decides to hang up his sneakers, that degree from Duke in whatever he studied, isn't going to help him get a job, not when there's a 15 year gap on his resume (although that Duke alumni network might help), ask the stay-at-home parents who try to re-join the workforce after 15 years out of it.

For athletes who don't go pro, and have to start a "real world" career after graduating, that free education is an amazing benefit (especially at the better schools).

But for the small percentage of pro athletes who will be chasing that pro career for the next 10-20 years of their life (like Wendell Carter probably will), that education isn't really providing much value.
kelly olynyk graduated as an accounting major and got his masters in business administration . I think he said Every summer he interns at his financial advisers firm. The real world is there if you want it. Some will blame the ncaa for not giving handouts. Others graduate, intern, and do the real world work


The ncaa, a non profit organization, owes no one anything. If you want to be paid, go to the nba or overseas and be a professional.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 02:39:04 PM by CelticsElite »