Author Topic: LeBlock Gate  (Read 1728 times)

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Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2018, 02:22:04 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Didn't watch the game but listened to the Dunc'd on recap and they indicated that there was an out of bounds situation right before the block play, which didn't get reviewed, that should have been Cavs ball but Indiana got it.  Curious why there isn't any mention of that on here other than this thread is anti-Lebron focused.

1) That play wasn't clear-cut at all and gets into the indisputable evidence to overturn area
2) There were 35 seconds left not 3
3) It wasn't even a basket
4) The goaltend was clearcut and black and white
5) The goaltend occured with 3 seconds left


You really don't get it Tazz? Your better than this.

Pretty basic, surprised you don't understand
Take a chill pill.  Did you miss the "didn't watch the game" part and just heard it mentioned on a podcast?  I'll watch the replay later today and be able to make my own assessment but am I not allowed to ask why others haven't mentioned it?   

Tazz if you are going to accuse everyone of being anti-lebron in a thread, you should at least know what you are talking about and have watched the plays in question. Whether or not you watched the game, you should understand people are going to talk more about a play that happens with 3 seconds left and involves a basket than a play with 33 seconds left that doesn't involve a basket. That is just common sense. Not sure why I need a chill pill for pointing that out and I think everyone would agree with me that a play with seconds left and a score is more controversial than a non-score 35 seconds earlier. This would be the case regardless of whether Lebron was involved or it was greg ostertag. Its a fair thing to call you out on.

I feel like Tazz asked a perfectly valid and innocent question, that for some reason, you seemed to take offense to. I was watching the Bruins game, so I was also completely unaware of that out of bounds play. I assume you must also think that the non-call shot clock violation in game 5 of the Celtics-Bucks series had no effect at the end of the game, simply because it didn't occur with only 3 seconds left.

If he didn't throw in the insult, sure it would have been innocent. However, saying people are only discussing this in a certain way because because they dislike a certain player is a fly-by insult and invalidates people's opinion's who actually did watch the game. That is not called for.

Secondly, to answer your question, I did not say the out of bounds play was not relevant to the outcome of the game. He asked why people were talking more over the goaltend than the out of bounds play. I explained why, and I do think that is pretty common sense (at end of game, actually involved a basket being scored etc).

However, if you don't understand this I can apply it to the celtics. Did that shot clock violation matter? Yes absolutely, they would have had a small chance to still win the game if they got the ball back down 5 with a minute left. However, to take this further, it certainly mattered way less than Jaylen Brown being fouled in game 4 with 30 seconds left when he should have been shooting free throws. People that are not fans of either team are going to discuss that Brown value more than they are the shot clock, cause the importance it had on the impact of the game is so much greater.

If you really don't understand the difference in value for these plays, there are actually systems that score how much specific plays impact win probability. I am more familiar with them for the NFL but they do exist for the NBA also. You can also look at the win probability charts throughout the game.


Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2018, 02:47:42 PM »

Online Moranis

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Didn't watch the game but listened to the Dunc'd on recap and they indicated that there was an out of bounds situation right before the block play, which didn't get reviewed, that should have been Cavs ball but Indiana got it.  Curious why there isn't any mention of that on here other than this thread is anti-Lebron focused.

1) That play wasn't clear-cut at all and gets into the indisputable evidence to overturn area
2) There were 35 seconds left not 3
3) It wasn't even a basket
4) The goaltend was clearcut and black and white
5) The goaltend occured with 3 seconds left


You really don't get it Tazz? Your better than this.

Pretty basic, surprised you don't understand
Take a chill pill.  Did you miss the "didn't watch the game" part and just heard it mentioned on a podcast?  I'll watch the replay later today and be able to make my own assessment but am I not allowed to ask why others haven't mentioned it?   

Tazz if you are going to accuse everyone of being anti-lebron in a thread, you should at least know what you are talking about and have watched the plays in question. Whether or not you watched the game, you should understand people are going to talk more about a play that happens with 3 seconds left and involves a basket than a play with 33 seconds left that doesn't involve a basket. That is just common sense. Not sure why I need a chill pill for pointing that out and I think everyone would agree with me that a play with seconds left and a score is more controversial than a non-score 35 seconds earlier. This would be the case regardless of whether Lebron was involved or it was greg ostertag. Its a fair thing to call you out on.

I feel like Tazz asked a perfectly valid and innocent question, that for some reason, you seemed to take offense to. I was watching the Bruins game, so I was also completely unaware of that out of bounds play. I assume you must also think that the non-call shot clock violation in game 5 of the Celtics-Bucks series had no effect at the end of the game, simply because it didn't occur with only 3 seconds left.

If he didn't throw in the insult, sure it would have been innocent. However, saying people are only discussing this in a certain way because because they dislike a certain player is a fly-by insult and invalidates people's opinion's who actually did watch the game. That is not called for.

Secondly, to answer your question, I did not say the out of bounds play was not relevant to the outcome of the game. He asked why people were talking more over the goaltend than the out of bounds play. I explained why, and I do think that is pretty common sense (at end of game, actually involved a basket being scored etc).

However, if you don't understand this I can apply it to the celtics. Did that shot clock violation matter? Yes absolutely, they would have had a small chance to still win the game if they got the ball back down 5 with a minute left. However, to take this further, it certainly mattered way less than Jaylen Brown being fouled in game 4 with 30 seconds left when he should have been shooting free throws. People that are not fans of either team are going to discuss that Brown value more than they are the shot clock, cause the importance it had on the impact of the game is so much greater.

If you really don't understand the difference in value for these plays, there are actually systems that score how much specific plays impact win probability. I am more familiar with them for the NFL but they do exist for the NBA also. You can also look at the win probability charts throughout the game.
You don't think an incorrect change of possession call with 26.3 seconds left in the game could have significantly altered the outcome of the game.  If they get the James out of bounds play call correct, there is no drive by Oladipo to even be arguing about. 

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2018, 03:05:58 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Didn't watch the game but listened to the Dunc'd on recap and they indicated that there was an out of bounds situation right before the block play, which didn't get reviewed, that should have been Cavs ball but Indiana got it.  Curious why there isn't any mention of that on here other than this thread is anti-Lebron focused.

1) That play wasn't clear-cut at all and gets into the indisputable evidence to overturn area
2) There were 35 seconds left not 3
3) It wasn't even a basket
4) The goaltend was clearcut and black and white
5) The goaltend occured with 3 seconds left


You really don't get it Tazz? Your better than this.

Pretty basic, surprised you don't understand
Take a chill pill.  Did you miss the "didn't watch the game" part and just heard it mentioned on a podcast?  I'll watch the replay later today and be able to make my own assessment but am I not allowed to ask why others haven't mentioned it?   

Tazz if you are going to accuse everyone of being anti-lebron in a thread, you should at least know what you are talking about and have watched the plays in question. Whether or not you watched the game, you should understand people are going to talk more about a play that happens with 3 seconds left and involves a basket than a play with 33 seconds left that doesn't involve a basket. That is just common sense. Not sure why I need a chill pill for pointing that out and I think everyone would agree with me that a play with seconds left and a score is more controversial than a non-score 35 seconds earlier. This would be the case regardless of whether Lebron was involved or it was greg ostertag. Its a fair thing to call you out on.

I feel like Tazz asked a perfectly valid and innocent question, that for some reason, you seemed to take offense to. I was watching the Bruins game, so I was also completely unaware of that out of bounds play. I assume you must also think that the non-call shot clock violation in game 5 of the Celtics-Bucks series had no effect at the end of the game, simply because it didn't occur with only 3 seconds left.

If he didn't throw in the insult, sure it would have been innocent. However, saying people are only discussing this in a certain way because because they dislike a certain player is a fly-by insult and invalidates people's opinion's who actually did watch the game. That is not called for.

Secondly, to answer your question, I did not say the out of bounds play was not relevant to the outcome of the game. He asked why people were talking more over the goaltend than the out of bounds play. I explained why, and I do think that is pretty common sense (at end of game, actually involved a basket being scored etc).

However, if you don't understand this I can apply it to the celtics. Did that shot clock violation matter? Yes absolutely, they would have had a small chance to still win the game if they got the ball back down 5 with a minute left. However, to take this further, it certainly mattered way less than Jaylen Brown being fouled in game 4 with 30 seconds left when he should have been shooting free throws. People that are not fans of either team are going to discuss that Brown value more than they are the shot clock, cause the importance it had on the impact of the game is so much greater.

If you really don't understand the difference in value for these plays, there are actually systems that score how much specific plays impact win probability. I am more familiar with them for the NFL but they do exist for the NBA also. You can also look at the win probability charts throughout the game.
You don't think an incorrect change of possession call with 26.3 seconds left in the game could have significantly altered the outcome of the game.  If they get the James out of bounds play call correct, there is no drive by Oladipo to even be arguing about.

Did you not read Moranis? I really don't know how I could have been more clear with this. For the 3rd time now, I am not saying the out of bounds play did not matter. I am answering his question why a play that would result in a basket with 3 seconds left is being discussed a lot more. Jeez. Board is having a tough day here....

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2018, 03:14:49 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The league has always allowed LeBron to goal tend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OQalbnPdiY

I always felt he is a great player who got tons of help from the league as their chosen one for his tenure.

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2018, 03:35:01 PM »

Offline TheisTheisBaby

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It was undeniably a goaltend and changed the outcome of the game.  Had the refs counted the basket Lebron doesn't have the luxury of taking a zero pressure 28 footer because they'd be down 2 and a miss results in a 3-2 series deficit.  But because the refs ignored the goaltend and the game was tied it was a no-lose situation for Lebron.  A miss still gives them OT and the make wins it.  And on the Oladipo drive Lebron can be seen grabbing his arm on the way up so technically it could have been an AND 1.  But it's the NBA and they don't want to see and Indiana vs Toronto/Wiz series in round 2. 

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2018, 04:01:34 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Didn't watch the game but listened to the Dunc'd on recap and they indicated that there was an out of bounds situation right before the block play, which didn't get reviewed, that should have been Cavs ball but Indiana got it.  Curious why there isn't any mention of that on here other than this thread is anti-Lebron focused.

1) That play wasn't clear-cut at all and gets into the indisputable evidence to overturn area
2) There were 35 seconds left not 3
3) It wasn't even a basket
4) The goaltend was clearcut and black and white
5) The goaltend occured with 3 seconds left


You really don't get it Tazz? Your better than this.

Pretty basic, surprised you don't understand
Take a chill pill.  Did you miss the "didn't watch the game" part and just heard it mentioned on a podcast?  I'll watch the replay later today and be able to make my own assessment but am I not allowed to ask why others haven't mentioned it?   

Tazz if you are going to accuse everyone of being anti-lebron in a thread, you should at least know what you are talking about and have watched the plays in question. Whether or not you watched the game, you should understand people are going to talk more about a play that happens with 3 seconds left and involves a basket than a play with 33 seconds left that doesn't involve a basket. That is just common sense. Not sure why I need a chill pill for pointing that out and I think everyone would agree with me that a play with seconds left and a score is more controversial than a non-score 35 seconds earlier. This would be the case regardless of whether Lebron was involved or it was greg ostertag. Its a fair thing to call you out on.

I feel like Tazz asked a perfectly valid and innocent question, that for some reason, you seemed to take offense to. I was watching the Bruins game, so I was also completely unaware of that out of bounds play. I assume you must also think that the non-call shot clock violation in game 5 of the Celtics-Bucks series had no effect at the end of the game, simply because it didn't occur with only 3 seconds left.

A bad call is a bad call, regardless of the time left in the game. But are all bad calls created equal? I personally donít think so.

I always have a much bigger issue with scoring plays. So of course incorrect foul calls and goaltends are more significant to me than whether a guy was .5 inch on the baseline.

The now infamous shot clock violation was not a scoring play. Horford didnít hit that shot and had he gotten it off .2 seconds earlier, would that excuse Milwaukee for not securing the rebound? The play wasnít dead yet and they didnít get the rebound. Even after that, Celtics didnít score on the second chance. So yes time came off the clock, but it didnít change the score.

I know the rules are what they are but itís getting ridiculous to put so much on the refs when this sport is arguably the fastest there is and there are only 3 refs per game. You canít even hesitate for a split second because apparently a late whistle means a bailout call. Itís really not an easy job and when the rules state they can review, they usually do.

Refs in every sport get calls wrong, but NBA players complain more than any other sport, all game long.

NBA needs to expand their crews to four (if even just for the playoffs) and also allow more reviews. I donít see how they want the game to be played quicker and called perfectly. Iíd rather a game take an extra five minutes and get more bang-bang plays reviewed.
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Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2018, 04:08:25 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Just walking through rule scenarios here - the LeBron block could've been reviewed if it was called a goaltend live, because the ball would be dead. Or maybe even if he'd blocked it out of bounds. The continuation of play after the block is what ruled it out.

But what would happen if (not here obviously) a reviewed goaltend that stayed inbounds was ruled a clean block? Would Cleveland get the ball automatically, or would Indiana have it with the remaining shot clock?  Anybody know?

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2018, 04:11:44 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Just walking through rule scenarios here - the LeBron block could've been reviewed if it was called a goaltend live, because the ball would be dead. Or maybe even if he'd blocked it out of bounds. The continuation of play after the block is what ruled it out.

But what would happen if (not here obviously) a reviewed goaltend that stayed inbounds was ruled a clean block? Would Cleveland get the ball automatically, or would Indiana have it with the remaining shot clock?  Anybody know?

I am not positive on this, but I believe if they whistled it for a goaltend and reviewed and it was determined to be clean, it would be called a jump ball. I don't think you have a clear recovery rule like you do on a fumble in the NFL, but maybe I am wrong.

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2018, 04:44:53 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Why was it not reviewable? Iím pretty sure Iíve seen goaltending calls reviewed. No?

Apparently they can only review it if they called it a goaltend , not if they did not blow the whistle
Yeah they can only review calls that have a blown whistle or the clock stops immediately on the play (like a ball out of bounds). 

Again though, that should not be a goal tend and the rules should be changed.

You keep saying that it should not be a goal tend.  Who cares what the rules might be later when the NBA might or might not change them.  By the rules today, that was a goaltend, and it had an impact on the game.

The real change that needs to happen is some type of coach's challenge maybe 2 a game that requires the refs to review the video.

Exactly. If we all wanted rules changed every time it would be something that benefitted our favorite player the league would be ridiculous. Strange argument to say the least.

The goaltending rule is fine the way it is. Itís clear cut, easy for refs to interpret by saying that if the ball touches the glass first itís a goal tend. If you change that , it would leave too much of it up to interpretation and create a lot of variability of what is called a goal tend

This. The current rule is a lot less ambiguous than a ref having to decide whether a ball is at the top of its arc etc.

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2018, 05:11:18 PM »

Offline greg683x

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im not in favor of giving coaches challenges to use throughout the game like then NFL does, HOWEVER.  I do think that inside of the final 2 minutes of the game, if a team has a timeout left, they can take said timeout and ask the officials to review any reviewable play.  if youre not responsible  with your timeouts and you have none left, then youre at the mercy of the the current rules like this one where the play wouldnt be reviewable bc theres no dead ball
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Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2018, 05:15:51 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Totally should have been called under the current rules, but they should change the rules as that shouldn't have been a goal tend.  The ball was still going up and wasn't directly over the hoop.

Umm, yes, it should have been a goaltend because it was a goaltend. You're not allowed to touch the ball once it hits the backboard, nor are you allowed to hit the backboard when someone is attempting a layup, which is never enforced, anymore, much like the provision concerning as to how players are not allowed to touch the net or put their hand(s) in the basket during a shot attempt. I think. Does anyone else remember when Pau Gasol blatantly goaltended Courtney Lee's shot at the end of regulation in Game 2 of the 2009 NBA Finals? Dude literally put his hand in the basket and hit the backboard all at once, and even Phil Jackson admitted that it should have been called, albeit two days later, lol ::) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7hXMtcRy4

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:58:19 PM by Beat LA »

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2018, 06:05:09 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Totally should have been called under the current rules, but they should change the rules as that shouldn't have been a goal tend.  The ball was still going up and wasn't directly over the hoop.

Umm, yes, it should have been a goal tend because it was a goal tend. You're not allowed to touch the ball once it hits the backboard, nor are you allowed to hit the backboard when someone is attempting a layup, which is never enforced, anymore, much like the provision concerning as to how players are not allowed to touch the net or put their hand(s) in the basket during a shot attempt. I think. Does anyone else remember when Pau Gasol blatantly goal tended Courtney Lee's shot at the end of regulation in Game 2 of the 2009 NBA Finals? Dude literally put his hand in the basket and hit the backboard all at once, and even Phil Jackson admitted that it should have been called, albeit two days later, lol ::) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7hXMtcRy4

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830

Pau also had an up-and-down that went uncalled (and on which he scored) against the Cs in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. He must have friends in high places.
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Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2018, 08:14:44 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Totally should have been called under the current rules, but they should change the rules as that shouldn't have been a goal tend.  The ball was still going up and wasn't directly over the hoop.

Umm, yes, it should have been a goaltend because it was a goaltend. You're not allowed to touch the ball once it hits the backboard, nor are you allowed to hit the backboard when someone is attempting a layup, which is never enforced, anymore, much like the provision concerning as to how players are not allowed to touch the net or put their hand(s) in the basket during a shot attempt. I think. Does anyone else remember when Pau Gasol blatantly goaltended Courtney Lee's shot at the end of regulation in Game 2 of the 2009 NBA Finals? Dude literally put his hand in the basket and hit the backboard all at once, and even Phil Jackson admitted that it should have been called, albeit two days later, lol ::) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7hXMtcRy4

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830

Pau also had an up-and-down that went uncalled (and on which he scored) against the Cs in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. He must have friends in high places.

Oh yeah, I remember that, believe me, although, as Bill Walton said afterwards, Boston lost that series in Game 3, and I'll always wonder as to whether or not Michael Finley - yes, Michael Finley - could have stepped in for that other guy after the latter was kneed in the thigh on his first jumper by the artist formerly known as Ron Artest ::) and never shot the same way for the rest of that series, I believe, but don't quote me on that.

Anyway, what's let's say "interesting" ::) about Gasol, imo, is that, if you remember as to how hey whined on what seemed like every single play despite routinely going over the backs of KG, Sheed, Perk, etc. which always resulted in fouls/free throws for the Lakers, when the latter played the Mavericks that very next year, the officials never gave him any of those calls, despite his antics, and haven't since. Hmm...::)

Honestly, though, and while that Game was almost a carbon copy of Game 7 between the Bulls and Pacers in the 1998 ECF, the reality was that Boston beat itself, too often, offensively, imo, and needed more depth in the form of, say, Wesley Matthews and Jerry Stackhouse, plus Finley, if they were to have beaten the Lakers. Brandon Bass in place of Glen Davis would have helped tremendously, as well, imo, and guys like Jannero Pargo and Jason Williams could have been had as a backup/backups for Rondo. Joe Smith could have been helpful, too, not to mention Ben Wallace, but we'll never know now, 2K notwithstanding, of course, lol. Sigh.

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2018, 08:46:53 PM »

Online Moranis

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Why was it not reviewable? Iím pretty sure Iíve seen goaltending calls reviewed. No?

Apparently they can only review it if they called it a goaltend , not if they did not blow the whistle
Yeah they can only review calls that have a blown whistle or the clock stops immediately on the play (like a ball out of bounds). 

Again though, that should not be a goal tend and the rules should be changed.

You keep saying that it should not be a goal tend.  Who cares what the rules might be later when the NBA might or might not change them.  By the rules today, that was a goaltend, and it had an impact on the game.

The real change that needs to happen is some type of coach's challenge maybe 2 a game that requires the refs to review the video.

Exactly. If we all wanted rules changed every time it would be something that benefitted our favorite player the league would be ridiculous. Strange argument to say the least.

The goaltending rule is fine the way it is. Itís clear cut, easy for refs to interpret by saying that if the ball touches the glass first itís a goal tend. If you change that , it would leave too much of it up to interpretation and create a lot of variability of what is called a goal tend

This. The current rule is a lot less ambiguous than a ref having to decide whether a ball is at the top of its arc etc.
they do that everywhere else

Re: LeBlock Gate
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2018, 08:49:49 PM »

Online Moranis

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Totally should have been called under the current rules, but they should change the rules as that shouldn't have been a goal tend.  The ball was still going up and wasn't directly over the hoop.

Umm, yes, it should have been a goaltend because it was a goaltend. You're not allowed to touch the ball once it hits the backboard, nor are you allowed to hit the backboard when someone is attempting a layup, which is never enforced, anymore, much like the provision concerning as to how players are not allowed to touch the net or put their hand(s) in the basket during a shot attempt. I think. Does anyone else remember when Pau Gasol blatantly goaltended Courtney Lee's shot at the end of regulation in Game 2 of the 2009 NBA Finals? Dude literally put his hand in the basket and hit the backboard all at once, and even Phil Jackson admitted that it should have been called, albeit two days later, lol ::) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7hXMtcRy4

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830
not sure what this has to do with my post at all