Author Topic: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?  (Read 3100 times)

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Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2018, 03:48:30 PM »

Online The Oracle

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2018, 03:55:45 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Got it by going into play-by-play and clicking the play link there. 

Yeah I can't see Korver's feet there but he's definitely outside the area, it looks like a charge, and Oladipo doesn't even complain heading back up.  Not seeing a smoking gun here.  Honestly the sketchiest first half foul is the #3 where Love got him into the air and leaned into him to shoot, but that's something that's generally called unless the contact is glancing. It's just an annoying kind of play, unless it's Paul Pierce doing it  :)

What's interesting is that so many of these complaints (not by you) seem to collapse to the idea that refs should base their calls on game situations, how many fouls star players have, etc, which is also something cited as evidence of rigging.  Like it's inherently unfair for Dipo to get 2 fouls in a minute whether they're valid calls or not. 

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2018, 03:56:41 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Got it by going into play-by-play and clicking the play link there. 

Yeah I can't see Korver's feet there but he's definitely outside the area, it looks like a charge, and Oladipo doesn't even complain heading back up.  Not seeing a smoking gun here.  Honestly the sketchiest first half foul is the #3 where Love got him into the air and leaned into him to shoot, but that's something that's generally called unless the contact is glancing. It's just an annoying kind of play, unless it's Paul Pierce doing it  :)

What's interesting is that so many of these complaints (not by you) seem to collapse to the idea that refs should base their calls on game situations, how many fouls star players have, etc, which is also something cited as evidence of rigging.  Like it's inherently unfair for Dipo to get 2 fouls in a minute whether they're valid calls or not.

Korver is 100% moving there man. Come on. People want to argue this cause they want to say "nba officiating is great they never favor anything", and i get that makes the NBA easier to watch. But come on... I thought he was moving live and watching this frame by frame on this replay it is even more obvious he wasn't set. I have a screenshot on my desktop here that I can't figure out how to load, but Korvers feet are about 3.5 feet apart as oladipo starts his jump. I have never seen someone argue before with a straight face that you can be in a set position with your legs spread out 3 to 3.5 feet apart. I would call this a blocking foul if it was Paul pierce himself down there.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2018, 04:59:08 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Thought both the 1st and 3rd fouls were called wrong. I also have no doubt whatsoever that NBA refs are told to watch for certain things and/or watch certain players. It also doesn't feel like the first time since Lebron went to Miami that after a Lebron loss the opposition suddenly gets called extremely tight and someone gets in foul trouble the very next game.

So I am an NBA conspiracy theorist. Sorry. 2002 LA-Sacramento, 2010 LA-Celtics and Tim Donaghy ruined me in that way.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2018, 05:19:57 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Thought both the 1st and 3rd fouls were called wrong. I also have no doubt whatsoever that NBA refs are told to watch for certain things and/or watch certain players. It also doesn't feel like the first time since Lebron went to Miami that after a Lebron loss the opposition suddenly gets called extremely tight and someone gets in foul trouble the very next game.

So I am an NBA conspiracy theorist. Sorry. 2002 LA-Sacramento, 2010 LA-Celtics and Tim Donaghy ruined me in that way.

Another thing to note on this point is LeBron would have never been called for those fouls that Oladipo was called for. Also, the fact that Oladipo did not complain does not mean he agreed with the call. It just could have been a passive aggressive reaction. There is nothing wrong with accepting that the NBA manipulates its product to influence returns. It is not pure competition. The league is still about making money, and the influence stretches from the ball boys all the way to the announcers on tv and the sidelines.

It's okay to accept that it is entertainment not pure competition. That is why players are allowed to travel, Palm, and foul without penalty.

I remember the days of the Pat Riley Lakers stagger defense that they ran every time they were behind and mounted a comeback...that defense was all about fouling opponents but the refs let it go and it was considered great defense.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2018, 05:29:13 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Got it by going into play-by-play and clicking the play link there. 

Yeah I can't see Korver's feet there but he's definitely outside the area, it looks like a charge, and Oladipo doesn't even complain heading back up.  Not seeing a smoking gun here.  Honestly the sketchiest first half foul is the #3 where Love got him into the air and leaned into him to shoot, but that's something that's generally called unless the contact is glancing. It's just an annoying kind of play, unless it's Paul Pierce doing it  :)

What's interesting is that so many of these complaints (not by you) seem to collapse to the idea that refs should base their calls on game situations, how many fouls star players have, etc, which is also something cited as evidence of rigging.  Like it's inherently unfair for Dipo to get 2 fouls in a minute whether they're valid calls or not.

Korver is 100% moving there man. Come on. People want to argue this cause they want to say "nba officiating is great they never favor anything", and i get that makes the NBA easier to watch.

I think refs have all sorts of biases, some individual but many situational ones that are deliberate and part of the officiating culture. I just don't think one of them is intentionally trying to tilt a game in one team's favor because "the league wants it" or whatever. I think those days are past.  Complaining about calls is a time-honored fan tradition but claiming a calculated bad motive isn't a good look and requires pretty compelling evidence.

And I don't think two bang-bang plays early in a first-round Game 2 says anything about it either way. I think people are frustrated that it happened because they want LeBron to go down and they're attaching that frustration to an existing narrative about the refs, instead of the fact that the Cavs came out hard in a must-win game, put Indy in a big hole, and they just couldn't climb all the way out.


But come on... I thought he was moving live and watching this frame by frame on this replay it is even more obvious he wasn't set. I have a screenshot on my desktop here that I can't figure out how to load, but Korvers feet are about 3.5 feet apart as oladipo starts his jump. I have never seen someone argue before with a straight face that you can be in a set position with your legs spread out 3 to 3.5 feet apart. I would call this a blocking foul if it was Paul pierce himself down there.

ok, some strong feelings about this and I really don't wanna go the frame-by-frame route. Say for argument's sake it did go the wrong way - that still doesn't suggest anything about refs deliberately trying to screw Indiana. I got no problem with grumbling about calls, bad calls happen every game. It's just the "league rigged it!" conspiracy mindset that seems so silly and injects a lot of empty cynicism into a great sport.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2018, 05:36:14 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Got it by going into play-by-play and clicking the play link there. 

Yeah I can't see Korver's feet there but he's definitely outside the area, it looks like a charge, and Oladipo doesn't even complain heading back up.  Not seeing a smoking gun here.  Honestly the sketchiest first half foul is the #3 where Love got him into the air and leaned into him to shoot, but that's something that's generally called unless the contact is glancing. It's just an annoying kind of play, unless it's Paul Pierce doing it  :)

What's interesting is that so many of these complaints (not by you) seem to collapse to the idea that refs should base their calls on game situations, how many fouls star players have, etc, which is also something cited as evidence of rigging.  Like it's inherently unfair for Dipo to get 2 fouls in a minute whether they're valid calls or not.

Korver is 100% moving there man. Come on. People want to argue this cause they want to say "nba officiating is great they never favor anything", and i get that makes the NBA easier to watch.

I think refs have all sorts of biases, some individual but many situational ones that are deliberate and part of the officiating culture. I just don't think one of them is intentionally trying to tilt a game in one team's favor because "the league wants it" or whatever. I think those days are past.  Complaining about calls is a time-honored fan tradition but claiming a calculated bad motive isn't a good look and requires pretty compelling evidence.

And I don't think two bang-bang plays early in a first-round Game 2 says anything about it either way. I think people are frustrated that it happened because they want LeBron to go down and they're attaching that frustration to an existing narrative about the refs, instead of the fact that the Cavs came out hard in a must-win game, put Indy in a big hole, and they just couldn't climb all the way out.


But come on... I thought he was moving live and watching this frame by frame on this replay it is even more obvious he wasn't set. I have a screenshot on my desktop here that I can't figure out how to load, but Korvers feet are about 3.5 feet apart as oladipo starts his jump. I have never seen someone argue before with a straight face that you can be in a set position with your legs spread out 3 to 3.5 feet apart. I would call this a blocking foul if it was Paul pierce himself down there.

ok, some strong feelings about this and I really don't wanna go the frame-by-frame route. Say for argument's sake it did go the wrong way - that still doesn't suggest anything about refs deliberately trying to screw Indiana. I got no problem with grumbling about calls, bad calls happen every game. It's just the "league rigged it!" conspiracy mindset that seems so silly and injects a lot of empty cynicism into a great sport.

You don't want conspiracy theories then you do not call suspect fouls on a team's superstar player that you would NEVER call on the opponent's superstar.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2018, 05:42:35 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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If you want to say you agree with the general notion that the NBA caters to star players, will sometimes overly favor the homecourt team, and can get it caught up in the moment to make some bad calls that is fine. We can agree to disagree.

Honestly what I take issue is that you can watch that play frame by frame and confidently say it was a good call (which you did earlier). If you pause when Oladipo is taking off Korver's feet are literally 3 feet apart. You add on the fact that if anything the the NBA sides with the offensive player in a tie and calls less fouls on stars and the call becomes even more ridiculous, but regardless it was an awful call.

 At a deeper , level it is pretty comical to think that korver, one of the slowest players in the league laterally and a lousy defensive player, somehow beats oladipo, one of the fastest and shiftiest players in the league, to the spot on a fastbreak to the spots to take a charge. 

I will say you can believe the NBA is completely on the up and up, but you shouldn't start misrepresenting bad calls like you did here to try and prove your point.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2018, 06:00:26 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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If such a conspiracy is in play, why haven't all of the blog boys and networks reported so ad nauseum? Deflategate got a ton of attention, and that pales in comparison to your view that the NBA is systematically fixing games.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2018, 06:04:12 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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I am a big picture guy...I mean if your ex wife that you have had a rocky relationship is killed with a knife and you show up with cuts on your hands the next day you better have some serious explanation for those cuts. Oladipo dominated the CAVS in game one, and he is sent to the bench by the refs early in game two (which turns out to be the decisive factor in the game) the burden is on the referees on this one. They have some explaining to do.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2018, 06:06:14 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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If such a conspiracy is in play, why haven't all of the blog boys and networks reported so ad nauseum? Deflategate got a ton of attention, and that pales in comparison to your view that the NBA is systematically fixing games.

Why would they? They all profit from the entertainment, they would rather not go back to the days when the NBA playoffs were on tape delay after the 11:00 nightly news.

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2018, 06:09:58 PM »

Offline TomHeinsohn

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Pau Gasol might as well have pulled a knife on Rondo and stabbed him underneath the basket for the putback in the 2010 finals. Never forget

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2018, 06:22:09 PM »

Online The Oracle

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http://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=10&Season=2017-18&title=Oladiphttp://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&GameID=0041700132&GameEventID=13&Season=2017-18&title=Oladipo%20P.FOUL%20(P2.T2)%20(E.Malloy)o%20Offensive%20Charge%20Foul%20(P1.T1)%20(E.Lewis)

TP but I can't get the video to open here. I'll try again at home.
Sorry I don't know why they didn't show up as direct links.  The box scores on NBA.COM contain video of each and every play in the play by play.  People may also find the new defense and match up sections they have added this year interesting.

As to the 2 early fouls on Olidipo they were a pretty obvious charge and him blasting into Lebron's screen, both of which were correctly called in my opinion.  The Pacers were a mess to start that game and blaming the refs with these conspiracy theories is just nonsense.

Got it by going into play-by-play and clicking the play link there. 

Yeah I can't see Korver's feet there but he's definitely outside the area, it looks like a charge, and Oladipo doesn't even complain heading back up.  Not seeing a smoking gun here.  Honestly the sketchiest first half foul is the #3 where Love got him into the air and leaned into him to shoot, but that's something that's generally called unless the contact is glancing. It's just an annoying kind of play, unless it's Paul Pierce doing it  :)

What's interesting is that so many of these complaints (not by you) seem to collapse to the idea that refs should base their calls on game situations, how many fouls star players have, etc, which is also something cited as evidence of rigging.  Like it's inherently unfair for Dipo to get 2 fouls in a minute whether they're valid calls or not.

Korver is 100% moving there man. Come on. People want to argue this cause they want to say "nba officiating is great they never favor anything", and i get that makes the NBA easier to watch. But come on... I thought he was moving live and watching this frame by frame on this replay it is even more obvious he wasn't set. I have a screenshot on my desktop here that I can't figure out how to load, but Korvers feet are about 3.5 feet apart as oladipo starts his jump. I have never seen someone argue before with a straight face that you can be in a set position with your legs spread out 3 to 3.5 feet apart. I would call this a blocking foul if it was Paul pierce himself down there.
The day that that play is not called a charge is the day that the NBA is no longer worth watching as players wont be allowed to play defense at all!  Korver establishes position in Oladipo's path and draws a near perfectly executed drawn charge, well outside the restricted area, arms vertical, and does not appear to move sideways at all.  Oladipo should have pulled it out rather than attacking 2 defenders in solid position.  Oladipo himself does NOT even argue the call as he knew it was correct!!  You can toggle it back and forth a thousand times on NBA.COM your screenshot is meaningless. 

Re: Did NBA agenda just show its' ugly head?
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2018, 06:23:09 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Thought both the 1st and 3rd fouls were called wrong. I also have no doubt whatsoever that NBA refs are told to watch for certain things and/or watch certain players. It also doesn't feel like the first time since Lebron went to Miami that after a Lebron loss the opposition suddenly gets called extremely tight and someone gets in foul trouble the very next game.

So I am an NBA conspiracy theorist. Sorry. 2002 LA-Sacramento, 2010 LA-Celtics and Tim Donaghy ruined me in that way.

These are great examples. I know I'm a biased Celtics fan/Lakers hater, but I don't see how anyone can look at the first two examples above and give any justification for the awful officiating in those series.

I don't think of myself as a conspiracy theorist, but maybe I am. I have no doubt that the league wants certain teams and players to appear on the biggest stage—the NBA Finals—and that referees thus call different things for different players/teams. I feel confident saying the NBA doesn't want Indiana anywhere near the conference finals, much less the NBA Finals, and certainly not at the expense of knocking LeBron out of the playoffs in the first round. There are always going to be bad calls, or at least borderline calls, but I just don't see how the officials couldn't see Love lean into Oladipo on Love's 3pt attempt. In fact, in watching/listening to the video of that play, the whistle is blown at the exact moment Oladipo makes contact with Love, which is not how the foul/whistle sequencing usually works. It's like the ref already knew Oladipo was going to commit a foul, or had already made up his mind that there was going to be a foul on the play, no matter what.

If that makes me a conspiracy theorist, that's fine by me. It's obvious to me that superstars get more calls than nonsuperstars, that vets get more calls than rookies, and that refs often call games differently in the last couple minutes than they do the rest of the game—all of which, to me, are unacceptable.
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