Author Topic: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard  (Read 5672 times)

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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2018, 05:30:28 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.

I think this is completely understandable, given LeBron's attitude...

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2018, 09:09:13 PM »

Offline mutineer33

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2018, 09:13:51 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Wrong Thread

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2018, 09:24:37 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2018, 09:37:09 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later,

It would be interesting to see if there was the same level of cognitive dissonance if Kyrie had threatened to sit out to force his way to the Knicks.




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DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2018, 09:55:36 PM »

Offline eja117

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.
One guy basically said in the off season "I want to be traded."  The other guy it's like the equivalent of getting banged up in the game and coming to the sideline and the trainer tapes him all up and says "Ok. You're good to go. Get back in there." and the player says "Oh no I'm not. I've got my own people on this. I'm not getting back in there. i have free agency coming up." Then all the teammates and coaches say "Woah dude. The game is going on right now. You need to get in there now" and he says "Nope. I'm going to NYC to work on this."

One guy wanted to be traded. The other quit.

Also I don't get this point where you didn't want Kyrie, but now you do want Kawhi, but others are being hypocritical.  I'm not getting that at all. In one case you didn't want to trade an injured older guy whose contract was coming up, but now you do want to trade a healthy young great player who's under a great contract for years for a hurt player, but for some reason that makes others inconsistent? 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 08:15:56 AM by eja117 »

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2018, 10:16:27 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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what is wrong with you people ?

the only future i want for Brown and Tatum is to have #7 & #0 in the rafters one day with five or six titles between them.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2018, 11:02:47 PM »

Offline mutineer33

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #113 on: April 21, 2018, 12:26:56 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #114 on: April 21, 2018, 12:30:12 AM »

Online gouki88

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.
After seeing the complete disaster that has been IT’s last 12 months I cannot blame Kawhi one bit

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #115 on: April 21, 2018, 12:45:18 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #116 on: April 21, 2018, 01:02:08 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #117 on: April 21, 2018, 01:57:42 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

Can't help but think that you're Kawhi, with the dual-goal of becoming a CsBlog mod AND getting traded to the Celts within the same year.  (kidding)

I'd like to not believe him, mostly because it was in the context of an interview for a position that I didn't get.  I have a lot more familiarity with DI athletes and witnessed what you described -- athletes wanting to play regardless of the condition or risks.  I had wrist/arm surgery shortly after the college football season let out, and the surgeon mentioned that he operates on a lot of players -- top ranked DI program -- right after the season lets out, as they play through injury out of fear that they'll lose their spot.  That sounds brutal but well within reason -- high level of competition with a lot to lose, esp with how NFL contracts are stratified based on draft position, and the much shorter shelf-life.

But I wonder if there's a marked difference between athletes fighting for their spot (both college and pro) vs. those that have reached a very high level of status.  I wish IT had shut it down last season.  But I also think he had maxed out his production at the NBA level and was never really considered a star to the tune of Kyrie or Kawhi.  He may well have thought it was necessary for him to play for his next contract, and miscalculated the pros vs. cons.  On the other hand, I can't help but call into question Kyrie threatening to have surgery when his trade request wasn't immediately met (and then didn't have the surgery till just now), and Kawhi playing sporadically throughout the season (after being cleared much sooner) only to shut it down much later on.  I don't know either of their medical issues, but it's very hard not to question their actions, especially in light of their status.  Kyrie did get his trade, and bias aside, to arguably the best situation in the NBA.  In the same vein, Kawhi can probably choose among a short list of teams he wants to play for if he demands it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:19:25 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #118 on: April 21, 2018, 06:48:31 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

I think it depends on the player and situation.   Some guys love to play and some guys are there for the money.   A lot of guys who make it there are bench bound and they want to play.   A superstar who is a set commodity does not have as much to prove.  But I agree a lot of them probably want on the field or court.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2018, 09:01:58 AM »

Offline mctyson

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There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

The players who choose this motto are the last people you give max contracts to.