Author Topic: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard  (Read 6753 times)

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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2018, 11:34:27 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case Cís get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH ó all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the Cís contend immediately.   

Imagine if the Cís had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 ó do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldnít like it because I want to see them develop here, but itís a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.

The kid shot 25% on all shots 3 feet and beyond.  He literally can only make layups.  Heís lost a ton of value since the draft.

It goes well beyond injury with him. Heís got mental hangups.
How do you know it isn't all injury related?  He shot 41.3% from three in college and was a decent shooter in summer league.  He got hurt and hasn't shot the same since.  Now maybe he never figures it out, but I find that highly unlikely.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2018, 11:36:08 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2018, 12:17:08 PM »

Online td450

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2018, 12:51:06 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2018, 01:05:28 PM »

Online eja117

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Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, Iím trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2018, 01:06:29 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, Iím trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2018, 01:07:33 PM »

Online td450

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.
I don't know with certainty, but its pretty unlikely that everyone who would know on both sides of the table have kept it quiet. The media attention on this is pretty crazy.

If he did tell the team he wants to leave privately, then good luck to him. We'd find out as soon as they are out of the playoffs.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2018, 01:09:49 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.
I don't know with certainty, but its pretty unlikely that everyone who would know on both sides of the table have kept it quiet. The media attention on this is pretty crazy.

If he did tell the team he wants to leave privately, then good luck to him. We'd find out as soon as they are out of the playoffs.
except neither side really has an incentive to release publically that Leonard requested a trade (if he did of course, he might not have). 

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2018, 01:21:45 PM »

Online eja117

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Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, Iím trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".
Sure there are. 

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2018, 01:29:51 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I havent heard Leonard ask for a trade so I dont know why everyone is flipping out. 

Leonard refusing to play is a direct result of multiple and reoccurring bad choices made by the Spurs medical staff.

When you are about to enter your prime and are available to make 200 million dollar contract... you have to be cautious.  Leonard is doing the smart thing in my opinion and being cautious.

No one here can relate to Leonard's mindset.  It's just obvious he doesnt want to get reinjured right before a new contract and entering his prime 27, 28, 29 years.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2018, 02:37:03 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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I would trade Kyrie for Kawhi straight up....then send Brown/Tatum/Horford for Davis/Mirotic
HAHA...

Rozier
Hayward
Leonard
Davis
Baynes

Bench:
Smart
Mirotic
Morris
Theis
Ojeleye
Bird
Yabusele
Monroe?
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2018, 02:38:38 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.

2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2018, 02:44:16 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, Iím trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".
I disagree. Many times a great player is in a situation where they get drafted by a team who really isn't committed or capable of ever putting a contender on the floor. A player who had no choice in where he ended up shouldn't be locked into them for life and considered a quitter for not wanting to stay there. It is in the teams best interest actually for a player who does not intend to resign with that team to let the team know they would like to be traded which gives the team an opportunity to get something for them vs nothing. Kyrie allowed them to get players and picks vs walking later. Hayward on the other hand left and the Jazz got nothing for it. I am sure the Jazz were certain they could keep him, however I am betting they would have rather traded Hayward to the C's for something.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2018, 03:19:55 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.



Yep.

Coaches will have nightmares before a matchup against Irving-Hayward-Brown-Tatum-Horford.

Think of the relief they will feel when Terry "I might make four 3s in 8 minutes" Rozier comes in the game for Irving. Or when Marcus "I will ruin your entire offensive set" Smart subs in for Brown. Or when Marcus "I am the best player on the court in any game" Morris subs in for Tatum. Or when Greg "I can't believe this NBA era has made a guy of my talents a bench player" Morris subs in for Horford.

Seriously, what mismatch do you attack against that team? Maybe Monroe in the pick-and-roll? Maybe Kyrie Irving? Seriously, who do you stick your worst defender on? 40% from 3 Al Horford? Jaylen Brown who is almost 40% from three and can bully small defenders?

If you go big, the Celtics will abuse you bigs on the perimeter. If you go small, the Cs will stick Hayward, Brown, Tatum, or Horford in the post (whoever has the best matchup).

Your defense doesn't have to matchup with one shot creator, 3 shooters, and a roll man. Your defense has to matchup with 5 shot creators who can all shoot, drive, and pass.

I like Leonard and Davis and other upper tier guys, but I'm confident that this team could beat anyone in a 7 game series. You don't mess with that.

Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2018, 03:56:40 PM »

Offline Erik

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I wonder if Rozier, Morris and S&T with Marcus Smart + whatever draft picks they want gets Kahwi. Obviously it's not an equal package, but Kahwi is disgruntled and hell we got Kyrie for essentially 1 lotto pick. Sac 19 is most likely going to be about the same as BRK18. Plus you can throw in all of the other picks. That's a lot of assets. I initially thought that it's way too little, but the more I think about it, it seems super fair.

It would make us the frontrunners for a very long time:
Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Leonard, Horford + every vet who wants to win a title.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 04:02:50 PM by Erik »