Author Topic: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard  (Read 6494 times)

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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2018, 01:00:58 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2018, 01:09:44 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrieís coach and teammates didnít attack him through the media.


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2018, 01:19:17 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrieís coach and teammates didnít attack him through the media.

For the record, I've never once blamed Kawhi for anything, nor have I claimed whatever is going on there is reason not to trade for him.  In fact, I've actually maintained that this is all probably a bit overblown.

Now, maybe it is true that Kawhi is to the point where he is so upset with the Spurs that he no longer wants to play there.  But that doesn't necessarily make him the 'bad guy'.  But maybe he is manipulating his injury situation as result.  Or maybe he legitimately still feels pain and isn't comfortable risking his long-term health.  I have always said a player should do what is in their own best interest in terms of their health.  I don't think anyone can say they truly know what exactly is going on there.  Both parties have been very quiet about it all.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2018, 06:36:36 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation. 

 I was thinking what a Jerk with pop's wife how she was in terms of health.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2018, 07:54:41 AM »

Offline eja117

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2018, 08:22:58 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.
Roy seems to be calling out the hypocrisy and blatant homerism as Kyrie and Kawhi's situation are very similar.  If you are ok with what Kyrie did it is pretty clearly hypocritical to not be ok with what Kawhi is doing.  That is the point he is making. 

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2018, 08:29:55 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, Iím trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2018, 09:09:44 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, thereís a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrieís coach and teammates didnít attack him through the media.

For the record, I've never once blamed Kawhi for anything, nor have I claimed whatever is going on there is reason not to trade for him.  In fact, I've actually maintained that this is all probably a bit overblown.

Now, maybe it is true that Kawhi is to the point where he is so upset with the Spurs that he no longer wants to play there.  But that doesn't necessarily make him the 'bad guy'.  But maybe he is manipulating his injury situation as result.  Or maybe he legitimately still feels pain and isn't comfortable risking his long-term health.  I have always said a player should do what is in their own best interest in terms of their health.  I don't think anyone can say they truly know what exactly is going on there.  Both parties have been very quiet about it all.

I respect that point of view. I just donít see a huge distinction between the two situations. Either theyíre both ďquittersĒ, or it doesnít really matter. People who absolve Kyrie while denegrating Kawhi, though, seem to be making value judgments based solely upon which guy ended up in green.


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2018, 09:50:12 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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I have absolutely no idea how bad Kawhi's injury is at this point. Any hesitation I have regarding Kawhi is 90% injury related and 10% drama. The fact that his teammates are turning on him BEFORE he leaves is the only red flag I see. But ultimately if he is healthy the drama is a non issue for me.
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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2018, 09:54:51 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case Cís get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH ó all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the Cís contend immediately.   

Imagine if the Cís had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 ó do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldnít like it because I want to see them develop here, but itís a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2018, 10:16:19 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case Cís get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH ó all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the Cís contend immediately.   

Imagine if the Cís had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 ó do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldnít like it because I want to see them develop here, but itís a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.

The kid shot 25% on all shots 3 feet and beyond.  He literally can only make layups.  Heís lost a ton of value since the draft.

It goes well beyond injury with him. Heís got mental hangups.


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2018, 10:21:22 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2018, 10:23:59 AM »

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Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.


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Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2018, 10:25:32 AM »

Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.

Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2018, 10:41:24 AM »

Offline CF033

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I'm hoping Danny leaves well enough alone and keeps the team as-is. We don't need KL for this team to win, I'm not sure we'd even be better with him. I believe that if we trade either Jaylen Brown or Jason Tatum to make it happen we'll be regretting it in the long run when one or both of them are absolutely tearing it up on another team.

Also, can we be certain that KL can even fit in well here? It feels like the team has a great chemistry right now and that could certainly mess with it.