Author Topic: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.  (Read 11708 times)

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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2018, 07:30:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I like both Simmons and embiid.... but I believe in Brown and Tatum to become superstars.. butler and George... 2 way players... you got 2 guys like that without tanking
Yes, but the Celts did that by pulling off an absolute steal of a trade and also got a little lucky. If The Nets had been even mediocre after that trade the Celts would not have had as good a draft haul.
And Philly got lucky to get the top pick the year Simmons came out. There's luck in both executions of rebuilds.
that was Hinkie's plan though.  To be bad enough and long enough to ensure at least 1 HOF talent cpuld be drafted.  He knew the draft was a crapshoot and maximized the chances of landing that type of player.  So yeah it was luck but it also wasn't luck either
It was luck...they won a freaking lottery. That's basically the definition of luck. Just because you try to maximize your chance at getting lucky doesn't mean it wasn't luck when you get lucky.
If you use that logic then every single rebuild ever was lucky. That's just the way the lottery is set up. It's not like the 76ers struck gold (Spurs getting Duncan, Bulls getting Rose, Cavs getting all those #1s). They had the best odds and won. They also got unlucky a number of times, like when the Lakers kept their pick back to back years.
Whether you have the best odds of winning or not, the odds are against you and so if you win, you're lucky. I also only claimed they were lucky with the Simmons pick. You win a lottery to get the best pick, that's luck. You're picking after the first pick because you were bad, then you are using scouting and hoping other team pick bad to get the player you want. They didn't get Embiid #1. That's good drafting, not luck. But the Simmons pick was luck. THEY WON A LOTTERY!!

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2018, 07:33:25 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I like both Simmons and embiid.... but I believe in Brown and Tatum to become superstars.. butler and George... 2 way players... you got 2 guys like that without tanking
Yes, but the Celts did that by pulling off an absolute steal of a trade and also got a little lucky. If The Nets had been even mediocre after that trade the Celts would not have had as good a draft haul.
And Philly got lucky to get the top pick the year Simmons came out. There's luck in both executions of rebuilds.
that was Hinkie's plan though.  To be bad enough and long enough to ensure at least 1 HOF talent cpuld be drafted.  He knew the draft was a crapshoot and maximized the chances of landing that type of player.  So yeah it was luck but it also wasn't luck either
It was luck...they won a freaking lottery. That's basically the definition of luck. Just because you try to maximize your chance at getting lucky doesn't mean it wasn't luck when you get lucky.
The Sixers winning the lottery one time by maximizing their odds across four drafts makes them a lot less lucky than other teams that won it.  Without even factoring in the additional chances from the 2 years of Kings pick swaps, the chances of the Sixers not getting the #1 pick in any of those 4 seasons was less than 45%.  If that had occurred, they would have been somewhat unlucky. 

Now the Cavs winning the lottery from the #8 and #9 slots in less than a decade, that's really lucky. 

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2018, 12:33:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Have we considered making a dedicated part of this forum for general panic about the 76ers potential greatness and fear of Lebron going there? It seems like people want to keep making threads about it and it would be easiest to have a dedicated spot.

Side note: I get they are not in the same division, but the warriors have won 2 of the last 3 seasons and set the all time win mark and we have less threads about their dominance potential/dominance.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2018, 12:41:06 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Embiid + Simmons > Tatum + Brown

Good thing the Celtics have Kyrie, Hayward, and Horford on their team going forward. Fultz, Saric, and another player would need to see a lot of development to match the Celtics on paper.

Philly is going to be great for a while, especially if they are able to add a Lebron or PG13 to their core. That being said, the Cs will be getting back Kyrie/Hayward as well so they are going to be a force as well. These 2 teams will be the teams to beat in the East for a while.

It will be interesting to see how Brown/Tatum develop. If they get to that next level as well, watch out. SAC pick could be huge too for Cs.
Even if Brown and Tatum end up being just 75% of Simmons and Embiid, we shouldn't forget that we got that (plus Rozier for a good measure) with one swing of the bat... and the 76ers had to endure years in the purgatory. I'd take our deal every day.
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2018, 12:43:49 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Have we considered making a dedicated part of this forum for general panic about the 76ers potential greatness and fear of Lebron going there? It seems like people want to keep making threads about it and it would be easiest to have a dedicated spot.

Side note: I get they are not in the same division, but the warriors have won 2 of the last 3 seasons and set the all time win mark and we have less threads about their dominance potential/dominance.

Sixers talk seems to be more inflammatory.  That probably fuels more discussion about them.  I'm guilty of it because Kyrie.  But I also like the Sixers.  But it is also fun to talk about because of all the strong opinions.  So to answer your question, nope.. let's keeping making new threads for inflammatory discussions within forum rules.
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2018, 12:47:26 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2018, 01:02:39 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

I like this piece a lot Phosita. I particularly liked this discussion point:

"The supportive fans certainly feel like they’ve been vindicated and won, which maybe is all that matters in something as ethereal as sports fandom. They’ve leaned into tribalism and self-aggrandizement as much as any fan base in recent American sports memory. They make Deflategate-period Patriots fans look rational. As strong an argument can be made that they sacrificed years of enjoying their team to end up in the same place as their peers, though. Do Jazz fans wish that they had tanked away a four year span? Maybe the defiance from Process Trusters is as much a coping mechanism as true search for vindication."

I think that in a nutshell is why we see so many of these threads popping up. Even our fans that were invested in this process and debated it over the years now want to try and prove that they were very intelligent in their invested arguments over the year even though a team like the jazz or timberwolves is in a very similar spot from a completely different path. (When I was watching the wolves yesterday I couldn't help but they they would be favorites to win the east if they were in it)

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2018, 01:13:57 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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HE is a genius?

He is a cheater imo

League allowing a team to tank repeated is ridiculous.  I can't blame Mark Cuban for trying to do the same

« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 01:21:49 PM by triboy16f »

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2018, 01:31:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

I like this piece a lot Phosita. I particularly liked this discussion point:

"The supportive fans certainly feel like they’ve been vindicated and won, which maybe is all that matters in something as ethereal as sports fandom. They’ve leaned into tribalism and self-aggrandizement as much as any fan base in recent American sports memory. They make Deflategate-period Patriots fans look rational. As strong an argument can be made that they sacrificed years of enjoying their team to end up in the same place as their peers, though. Do Jazz fans wish that they had tanked away a four year span? Maybe the defiance from Process Trusters is as much a coping mechanism as true search for vindication."

I think that in a nutshell is why we see so many of these threads popping up. Even our fans that were invested in this process and debated it over the years now want to try and prove that they were very intelligent in their invested arguments over the year even though a team like the jazz or timberwolves is in a very similar spot from a completely different path. (When I was watching the wolves yesterday I couldn't help but they they would be favorites to win the east if they were in it)
Patriots fans were the only rational fans in the NFL during Deflategate. They were the only ones that understood that cold weather can deflate a football a couple to a few tenths of a pound per square inch of pressure. 😁
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 01:45:50 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2018, 01:36:03 PM »

Offline konkmv

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Hinkie picked... Williams noel okafor Simmons and embiid... If if embiid can stay healthy it is 2 out of 5...for so many lost years... and the Sixers are playing well because for the first time in several years their supporting cast is decent..

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2018, 01:37:51 PM »

Offline Moranis

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

I like this piece a lot Phosita. I particularly liked this discussion point:

"The supportive fans certainly feel like they’ve been vindicated and won, which maybe is all that matters in something as ethereal as sports fandom. They’ve leaned into tribalism and self-aggrandizement as much as any fan base in recent American sports memory. They make Deflategate-period Patriots fans look rational. As strong an argument can be made that they sacrificed years of enjoying their team to end up in the same place as their peers, though. Do Jazz fans wish that they had tanked away a four year span? Maybe the defiance from Process Trusters is as much a coping mechanism as true search for vindication."

I think that in a nutshell is why we see so many of these threads popping up. Even our fans that were invested in this process and debated it over the years now want to try and prove that they were very intelligent in their invested arguments over the year even though a team like the jazz or timberwolves is in a very similar spot from a completely different path. (When I was watching the wolves yesterday I couldn't help but they they would be favorites to win the east if they were in it)
To say the Jazz and the Sixers are in the same place is pretty silly.  This season they did end up around the same amount of wins (though the Sixers are a betting favorite for the ECF and the Jazz likely won't get out of the 1st round), but what do people think next year will look like, or the year after, or the year after, or the 5 to 10 years after that. 

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2018, 01:42:20 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

I like this piece a lot Phosita. I particularly liked this discussion point:

"The supportive fans certainly feel like they’ve been vindicated and won, which maybe is all that matters in something as ethereal as sports fandom. They’ve leaned into tribalism and self-aggrandizement as much as any fan base in recent American sports memory. They make Deflategate-period Patriots fans look rational. As strong an argument can be made that they sacrificed years of enjoying their team to end up in the same place as their peers, though. Do Jazz fans wish that they had tanked away a four year span? Maybe the defiance from Process Trusters is as much a coping mechanism as true search for vindication."

I think that in a nutshell is why we see so many of these threads popping up. Even our fans that were invested in this process and debated it over the years now want to try and prove that they were very intelligent in their invested arguments over the year even though a team like the jazz or timberwolves is in a very similar spot from a completely different path. (When I was watching the wolves yesterday I couldn't help but they they would be favorites to win the east if they were in it)

Patriots fans were the only rational fans in the NFL during Deflategate. They were the only ones that understood that cold weather can deflate a football a couple to a few tenths of a pound per square inch of pressure. 😁

Pretty much my thinking, Nick.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 01:46:06 PM by nickagneta »
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2018, 01:48:36 PM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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Danny Ainge drafts Fab Melo at 22 and he gets eviscerated on these boards.

Sam Hinkie makes high lottery picks out of Jahlil Okafor and Nerlens Noel and he's a genius.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2018, 01:48:45 PM »

Offline jambr380

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

Great piece. In addition to what CClay posted, I also liked these parts:

Quote
...It ignores that the most basic thing that the league actually requires is that you try, because having two teams trying is how a sports league makes money. Before you get to play in the league, you have to agree to that...

...The job of an NBA franchise is, first, to make money for the league. Again, the 76ers are a major market with history and will always make enough local revenues to survive just fine, especially if part of their strategy is to run the lowest possible payroll expense. The issue becomes that the 4th largest media market is a non-entity for the national broadcast partners. A marquee matchup becomes an unsellable ticket to 29 partner franchises. A team you expect to be contributing into revenue sharing and the luxury tax pool is instead doing neither. Strategic tanking cannot be supported anywhere, but it’s particularly insidious if a market that already has ingrained advantages and an outsized importance for the league does it...

The only real winner from The Process is the primary perpetrators, the 76ers owners. They ran a con and won, which should be no surprise to anyone familiar with wealthy people in America running cons. They bought a team on the cheap, ran it on the cheap to the detriment of their partners, grabbed their partners’ charity with both hands, and are left in a far better place with no major repercussions for themselves.

People can feel jealous of the results of 'The Process', but should be appalled by the idea.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:42:12 PM by jambr380 »

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2018, 01:58:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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For all further posts about Hinkie I'm just gonna link people to Ryan Bernardoni's great piece on the subject:

http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/

I like this piece a lot Phosita. I particularly liked this discussion point:

"The supportive fans certainly feel like they’ve been vindicated and won, which maybe is all that matters in something as ethereal as sports fandom. They’ve leaned into tribalism and self-aggrandizement as much as any fan base in recent American sports memory. They make Deflategate-period Patriots fans look rational. As strong an argument can be made that they sacrificed years of enjoying their team to end up in the same place as their peers, though. Do Jazz fans wish that they had tanked away a four year span? Maybe the defiance from Process Trusters is as much a coping mechanism as true search for vindication."

I think that in a nutshell is why we see so many of these threads popping up. Even our fans that were invested in this process and debated it over the years now want to try and prove that they were very intelligent in their invested arguments over the year even though a team like the jazz or timberwolves is in a very similar spot from a completely different path. (When I was watching the wolves yesterday I couldn't help but they they would be favorites to win the east if they were in it)
To say the Jazz and the Sixers are in the same place is pretty silly.  This season they did end up around the same amount of wins (though the Sixers are a betting favorite for the ECF and the Jazz likely won't get out of the 1st round), but what do people think next year will look like, or the year after, or the year after, or the 5 to 10 years after that.

If you switch the Jazz and 76ers conferences the exact same is true. The 76ers would probably lose to OKC in the first round themselves. Lets not fall into this trap of pretending east teams are better than they are because the top 2 contenders from last year were decimated by chemistry (Kyrie Trade), Injuries (hayward) and 3-4 of the all-stars from last season went west (including dramatic game changers in George and Butler).

The jazz have a potentially transcendent star in Mitchell. Gobert is an incredible defensive player and is only a year older than embiid with less injury history. The Jazz also have 25 million in expiring deals they can trade next season and have cap space this offseason. If are going to say the Jazz somehow can't handle a franchise player in free agency the next two offseasons because they are not a desirable place for free agency that's not really their fault. 

The timberwolves would also be betting favorite to make the the ECF if they were in the east also. They lost by 3 on the road to the best team in the league despite their allstar going for 8 points.