Author Topic: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So  (Read 4884 times)

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Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2018, 01:30:29 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Brown is a better defender based on what? Certainly not the stats models:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id1_select=Jaylen+Brown&y1=2018&player_id1=brownja02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id2_select=Jayson+Tatum&y2=2018&player_id2=tatumja01&idx=players

I also don't see it in game either.  I'd argue that Tatum is the better defender, or at least it's close enough that the difference in offense makes Tatum the no brainer.

Brown is elite among starters in FG% differential, holding opponents to 5.8 percentage points below their averages. He’s an outstanding defender, certainly better than Tatum right now.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

How does this stat project players on teams that allow a free drive to the lane into help defense like the Celtics defense does? What is the definition of who is guarding the player? The player who initially guarded him or the player who guarded the shot ?  Can it isolate the player or is it team defense driven?

I'm calling it into question because Isaiah Thomas is on page 3 at -2.7% which seems awfully inaccurate given he c ant block or contest any shot.

The IT stat is... interesting. All advanced defensive stats have issues; certainly the composites do. But if you sort players based on FG% difference, including only players with 50+ games (to sort out the guys who had a few awesome games then got injured or went back to the D league...) the players are the top are ones you'd expect to see there.

The other significant thing to me is that if Boston is playing an elite scoring wing, Brown is going to guard that guy, not Tatum.  And while Tatum is good at rotations, especially for a rookie, to me Brown misses fewer rotations and covers ground to close out on a shooter better.

That's all about whether Brown is a better defender now. Better player overall? Better ceiling? Different question. I'd say Tatum is likely to be better overall, but I've got a fairly broad confidence interval on that one.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2018, 05:09:40 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I can see a scenario for a trade that involves a sign and trade of Smart to deal with the salary (still puts Boston into luxury tax I think).  Say Smart ($10M) Tatum ($6.7M) and you get there.  My a question is the resulting roster.  Do we start:

Irving
Brown
Leonard
Horford
Some other Big

And then bring Hayward off the bench as at 2/3 (or wing or whatever you want to all it).  Per 82games, Hayward split his time between 2 and 3 while Leonard played almost exclusively at 3 (based on 2016/17).  Hayward the next super 6th man?  Can Stevens/Ainge convince him to go along with this?  If so, I like this team.

And no, I do not want to have Hayward or Leonard play primarily at a big position.  There are 96 minutes at the 2 and 3.  There are enough minutes for them to not have to play as a PF except in limited small ball cases.

I think I discussed with @saltlover about this, but if Smart is in the package as a S&T, only HALF his annual salary is accounted in the trade. So if Smart signs 4/40M and goes SAS, it will only account for $5M in the actual trade, not $10M, or if Smart signs 4/48M, it counts as 6M.

Could be wrong or may have misunderstood, but I think that's how it works.
I think you're talking about Base Year Compensation for a sign and trade where only the outgoing salary is accounted for as 50% of the first year's salary or the player's old salary whichever is higher. I think a team has to be in a taxpayer situation for a sign and trade BYC to go into effect. I know the Celtics aren't taxpayers and I am pretty sure San Antonio isn't either so I am not sure BYC happens here. Though I could be wrong.

Oh ok, TP for that. Honestly, I have no clue, I'm just not a cap expert at all :P
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2018, 01:28:15 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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This turned into a little bit of a debate about who is better, Tatum or Brown.  I don't think it is a question about that so much as question about keeping the roster balanced.  Kawhi and Tatum are both 3s as their natural position.  Hayward also although of the three of them, he has played the most at another position (in his case he has played a lot at 2).  It makes no sense to trade Brown for Kawhi and have a roster of Kawhi, Tatum, and Hayward.

For the record, my opinion is that is it not possible to declare that Tatum is better than Brown.  I don't know which will be better.  I like them both a lot but would be willing to consider trading one of them in a package for Davis or Kawhi.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2018, 01:29:01 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard
“The rim is looking bigger and bigger every game.”

 Paul Pierce

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2018, 01:29:50 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Yeah like that was ever happening.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2018, 08:09:49 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

At the moment, I wouldn't trade Brown either.

This Spurs lack of communication is something else, coupled with him being injured and an expiring next year. Same concerns that acquiring PG had with the L.A. thing.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2018, 03:31:00 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Tatum, Horford.

Kinda hard to beat that lineup in terms of overall talent.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2018, 03:34:00 AM »

Offline Casperian

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Why not? What do you have against good players?
"In Danny we trust" is so 2016.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2018, 04:55:10 AM »

Offline Somebody

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Why not? What do you have against good players?
Why yes? What do you have against talented young players on cost controlled contracts with potential? Or are you actually trolling all the time?
****cago Bull****

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2018, 05:31:46 AM »

Offline gouki88

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Why not? What do you have against good players?
Why yes? What do you have against talented young players on cost controlled contracts with potential? Or are you actually trolling all the time?
TP

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2018, 05:59:59 AM »

Offline ederson

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Why not? What do you have against good players?
Why yes? What do you have against talented young players on cost controlled contracts with potential? Or are you actually trolling all the time?

The whole issue with the injury is worrying me. Spurs Doctors cleared him to play but he chooses not to.....  The whole year ! And now he is not even present at the games.

I don't like this attitude

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2018, 06:38:17 AM »

Offline Androslav

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No way I am trading Tatum for Leonard

Why not? What do you have against good players?
Why yes? What do you have against talented young players on cost controlled contracts with potential? Or are you actually trolling all the time?

The whole issue with the injury is worrying me. Spurs Doctors cleared him to play but he chooses not to.....  The whole year ! And now he is not even present at the games.

I don't like this attitude
@ederson, I agree that an injury itself is worry some.
However, since we don't have clear and 100% true info, I'll play Kawhi' camp for a sec.
Raining down on my 2nd most favorite NBA team.

- Celtic team docs also told IT that he will be fine. IT probably lost 10-30$ mil$ due to that. Maybe even 50 mil$. Kawhi could lose 100's of mil$. Then IT got traded too. Celts trainers were fired in the aftermath.
- I believe that SAS docs misdiagnosed or mistreated Kawhi's injury. Making him a potential 2nd IT. Him coming back for 9 games and then not returning makes me think that.
- Kawhi is an MVP tier of player. You just don't play with that. Just like you don't leave nukes on the side of the road. You take care of that under any circumstance, or it takes care of you.
- SAS don't strike me as overly talented team set up for the future. Kawhi can win titles elsewhere (BOS, LAL, PHILY...) more easily.
- This way, putting SAS organization in flux and pressuring their reputation, Kawhi can control his career more easily. All businessmen want that.
- POP could retire in a year or 2. He almost certainly won't be here for the next 10.
- Since TD retired so many info leaked from the organization. More than it did during the whole 2 decades prior to that.
- SAS - wake up - it is a players league.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2018, 07:01:58 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I can see a scenario for a trade that involves a sign and trade of Smart to deal with the salary (still puts Boston into luxury tax I think).  Say Smart ($10M) Tatum ($6.7M) and you get there.  My a question is the resulting roster.  Do we start:

Irving
Brown
Leonard
Horford
Some other Big

And then bring Hayward off the bench as at 2/3 (or wing or whatever you want to all it).  Per 82games, Hayward split his time between 2 and 3 while Leonard played almost exclusively at 3 (based on 2016/17).  Hayward the next super 6th man?  Can Stevens/Ainge convince him to go along with this?  If so, I like this team.

And no, I do not want to have Hayward or Leonard play primarily at a big position.  There are 96 minutes at the 2 and 3.  There are enough minutes for them to not have to play as a PF except in limited small ball cases.
I think the sign and trades rules mean that for matching purposes the salary is halved. So for Smart to be $10m of matching salary, he would need to be signed to a contract worth $20m/yr which is unlikely.
Just makes matching salary all the harder.

As inexplicable as it is the best way to match salary is to include Hayward and I don't think that will happen

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2018, 07:31:59 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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KL is mad at somebody in tue organization or is he done with pro ball.    Question is WHO ?   Players claim its not them.   OK ..

so that leaves Coaches or GM or owners or he has had some serious mental disorder has set in.

for him to totally ignore his teamates, not support them is ugly .   Pops usually has his players backs , especially his star player. 

No way I want him till he comes clean about his intentions.

A few NBA players have walked away from the sport in their prime , maybe he is having those thoughts.

Re: Kawhi Leonard Moving To Boston Celtics? Dwyane Wade Thinks So
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2018, 08:24:01 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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The thought of bringing in KL is appealing but man, I just don't think I could part with Jaylen or Tatum in that situation. Especially with the skepticism surrounding his year with the Spurs and his injury this year...

The Spurs wouldn't do it but I'd do a s+t of Smart, the Kings pick and a future celtics first for him. It is certainly not enough and the Spurs don't make a deal without Brown or Tatum but thats as far as I go.

What a pipe dream lineup:

Irving/Rozier/Larkin
Hayward/Brown
Leonard/Semi
Tatum/Morris
Horford/Baynes/Theis
CB Draft 2016:
PG:Tony Parker/Mo Williams
SG:Alec Burks/Manu Ginobili
SF:Al Farouq-Aminu/Jared Dudley/Tony Snell
PF:Dirk Nowitzki/JaMychal Green
C: Deandre Jordan/Roy Hibbert/Alex Len