Author Topic: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors  (Read 11277 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #150 on: April 17, 2018, 03:03:30 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9748
  • Tommy Points: 719
  • On To Banner 18!
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.

You make good points, BUT it really depends how much luxury tax they have to pay.

Hypothetically, you have 4 max guys and possibly another one (whoever between Tatum/Brown stays), and another guy (or two) staying on a decent contract in Rozier OR Smart. Then of course there's the dilemma of putting together a bench with good depth options using a bunch of exceptions.

Sure, they'll be willing to go into the luxury tax, but would they be willing to dish out about as much as CLE has been paying recently or even more? Doubt it. Of course though, part of it depends on how much the max-extensions are for Kawhi+Kyrie, AND how much Smart signs for (and/or Rozier).
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #151 on: April 17, 2018, 04:12:15 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33150
  • Tommy Points: 5416
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
they don't have to use the MLE at all, as they can offer each 120% of their previous year salary.  That would be around 5.2 million for Baynes and 6 million for Monroe.  The taxpayer MLE is projected around 5.29 million, while the non-taxpayer MLE is projected around 8.57 million.  Assuming, Boston is a taxpayer they could sign both Baynes and Monroe and still have the taxpayer MLE to add someone else.  Now if either of those guys got offered the non-taxpayer MLE or greater from some other team, Boston wouldn't be able to match those offers anyway (assuming it is a taxpayer which it would be in this scenario).
So basically you are playing semantics with the definition of MLE by including the taxpayer MLE, which you know is not what I meant, and then said you aren't going to give them the MLE just 20% raises, which I knew about, but think both will be looking for the MLE, $8.7 million or so.

Whatever Moranis. You want to play word games...have at.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #152 on: April 17, 2018, 08:03:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19337
  • Tommy Points: 915
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
they don't have to use the MLE at all, as they can offer each 120% of their previous year salary.  That would be around 5.2 million for Baynes and 6 million for Monroe.  The taxpayer MLE is projected around 5.29 million, while the non-taxpayer MLE is projected around 8.57 million.  Assuming, Boston is a taxpayer they could sign both Baynes and Monroe and still have the taxpayer MLE to add someone else.  Now if either of those guys got offered the non-taxpayer MLE or greater from some other team, Boston wouldn't be able to match those offers anyway (assuming it is a taxpayer which it would be in this scenario).
So basically you are playing semantics with the definition of MLE by including the taxpayer MLE, which you know is not what I meant, and then said you aren't going to give them the MLE just 20% raises, which I knew about, but think both will be looking for the MLE, $8.7 million or so.

Whatever Moranis. You want to play word games...have at.
Boston very possibly even without a trade will be in the luxury tax though and thus only will have the taxpayer MLE so they easily would lose both if they really want the full non taxpwt MLE

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #153 on: April 25, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9748
  • Tommy Points: 719
  • On To Banner 18!
This playoff series is pretty much supporting the takes made by Tommy and Gorman.

Kaufman putting it wisely as well (despite some "rebuttals" made by Nick Wright lol)

https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/988137282623496192

Quote
Adam Kaufman
‏Verified account
@AdamMKaufman

You donít trade Jayson Tatum.

You donít trade Jaylen Brown.

Pretty simple, really. #Celtics

2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #154 on: April 25, 2018, 11:34:41 AM »

Offline Rosco917

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4393
  • Tommy Points: 343
I'd like to see a healthy version of the current roster play before we talk about breaking them up.

If Hayward and Irving come back 100% and Brown and Tatum take the next step...this team could be scary.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #155 on: April 25, 2018, 12:00:24 PM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24087
  • Tommy Points: 1060
  • What a Pub Should Be
I'd like to see a healthy version of the current roster play before we talk about breaking them up.

If Hayward and Irving come back 100% and Brown and Tatum take the next step...this team could be scary.

That's the boat I'm in.  I think they're a legit contender next year if healthy without having to really do anything.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #156 on: April 25, 2018, 12:33:21 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4054
  • Tommy Points: 330
This playoff series is pretty much supporting the takes made by Tommy and Gorman.

Kaufman putting it wisely as well (despite some "rebuttals" made by Nick Wright lol)

https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/988137282623496192

Quote
Adam Kaufman
‏Verified account
@AdamMKaufman

You donít trade Jayson Tatum.

You donít trade Jaylen Brown.

Pretty simple, really. #Celtics

A little exaggerated I think.  There is not much that I would trade Brown or Tatum for but the discussion has been for guys like Davis and Leonard.  Any discussion of Davis trades are probably pointless but it seems Leonard may be in play. Until recently, Leonard was an MVP candidate and he still may be one but certainly some red flags have popped up around him.

I have no problem considering trading promising young players for in their prime MVP level players (assuming all the red flags clear).  Trading Tatum in package for Leonard makes sense as they play the same position.  Not saying I would do it but I don't classify it as untouchable.