Author Topic: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors  (Read 11060 times)

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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2018, 11:55:49 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I think a Horford, Brown, Rozier, and a couple of good picks will do it (give or take)... With Kawai due for another contract the C's will have some leverage in negotiations...

First off, Horford alone makes like 10M more than Kawhi currently.

2nd, I'm not trading Horford for anyone at the moment. Looks bad to just trade away your first marquee FA signing within 2 years of his contract (Isaiah trade already looked kind of bad but at least we had traded for him originally - not signed him in FA). Also we'd have a big hole at the 4/5 without Horford. Bigger than people realize.
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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2018, 12:03:02 PM »

Offline td450

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If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Professional sports is inherently tough on a human body. All pro athletes must figure out what the wisest balance is under their particular circumstances. Being reckless is stupid, but there is no place in pro sports for an ultra conservative approach either. You have to be willing to work through a process when injured and you have to live with some level of pain if you make your living as an athlete.

We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2018, 12:03:48 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Great...but those guys also didn't want to send Big Al for KG...Pretty sure Danny doesn't ask them. ha.

Funny enough, Mike addressed this.

Quote
Celtics’ general manager Danny Ainge once decided to take advantage of the close quarters and run an idea by the team’s play by play man.

“If you had a chance to get Kevin Garnett,” Ainge asked. “Would you give up Al Jefferson?”

Gorman said no.

Luckily for Celtics’ fans, Ainge ignored the advice and dealt Jefferson to the Timberwolves in a trade that brought Garnett to Boston. Garnett won Defensive Player of the Year as the Celtics raised Banner No. 17, while the Timberwolves wrapped up their season with a 22-60 record. Gorman called Garnett the best teammate he’s ever seen for his ability to organize, even micromanage, a locker room.

“That was the last time Danny consulted me on any potential deals,” Gorman laughed.

LOL. So I'm probably one of the younger members on here (at the ripe age of 20), and so I was about 9-10 y/o when the 2007 trades happened.

I actually never knew Gorman was opposed to trading Jefferson in a KG deal or that Ainge had even asked him about it to "gain a feeler".  :o

But honestly I probably would have also been against it as I love every member of this team every year and consider everyone untouchable, like last year before Ainge traded A TON of guys  :laugh:
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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2018, 12:16:22 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

you also have to imagine the Celtics front office is looking at it from the perspective of the chances of us winning a championship this year vs. having Kyrie Healthy when we have Hayward back next year and can truly put together a run for banner 18.

As fun as this years team is. Once Hayward went down, I think our ceiling was limited.

Yeah, getting the surgery now instead of delaying it ensures a healthy Kyrie for training camp. I’ve got no issue with the decision at all.


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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2018, 12:16:41 PM »

Offline Erik

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Apples to oranges. If we had a team with 30 year old stars, like pierce and Allen, I'd swap Tatum for a top 5 player. For our current team, he's projected to be a top 20 player right around the time we're heavily favored to win titles (3 years).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 12:22:24 PM by Erik »

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2018, 12:22:50 PM »

Online Roy H.

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We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.


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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2018, 12:25:32 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.  He didn’t get an infection due to the first surgery; it was pre-existing and wasn’t causing systemic issues. It was causing local site pain.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

While it may have been a matter of pain tolerance in regards to the timing of Kyrie undergoing the first surgery to remove the tension wires, undergoing the second surgery was not a matter of pain tolerance but medical prudence (it was reported the first surgery had been successful in alleviating the pain).  Leaving the screws in his knee and hoping the infection would just go away with antibiotics would have been an unwise decision, and it seems this surgery wasn't necessarily as much his choice, but the recommendation of his doctors.  This isn't a situation where the team and the player are at odds over the decision.

And ultimately, had Kyrie not elected to get the first surgery to remove the tension wires the doctors may not have discovered the infection before it became worse.  And while it could be argued he should have had both the tension wires and screws removed prior to this season, Kyrie tried to play through it until he no longer could bear the pain.

But to you larger point, regarding players playing through pain, I agree that a player needs to do what they feel is in their own best interest, even if it isn't what the team thinks is best.  It's their body, and their health.  But I do feel like in this particular case, Kyrie's decision was not only the best for him, but best for the team in the long run.  Putting it off any longer could have very well made things worse, and the Celtics medical staff seemed to agree.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2018, 12:25:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Apples to oranges. If we had a team with 30 year old stars, like pierce and Allen, I'd swap Tatum for a top 5 player. For our current team, he's projected to be a top 20 player right around the time we're heavily favored to win titles (3 years).

Heavily favored by who?

And, Kawhi will be 29 in three years, so it’s not like he wouldn’t fit in with a Kyrie / Hayward core.


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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2018, 12:29:12 PM »

Online footey

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We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.

I agree it was mismanaged but your last sentence seems speculative. We will never know whether earlier treatment and rest would have avoided surgery at the end of the day.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2018, 12:30:52 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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But getting back on topic, in regards to Kawhi, I would not trade Tatum.  He has too much potential, and honestly I wouldn't trade him for anyone right now.

I would probably trade Brown and other assets for Kawhi, but I'd first want to understand more about what exactly is going on with that hamstring of his.  It's just strange that team doctors are saying he's fine and can't explain why Kawhi is feeling pain there still.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2018, 01:10:51 PM »

Online Roy H.

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We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.

I agree it was mismanaged but your last sentence seems speculative. We will never know whether earlier treatment and rest would have avoided surgery at the end of the day.

Sure, just like we will never know if McHale’s career was affected by playing on a broken foot. But, we can come to rational conclusions without 100% certainty.


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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2018, 01:25:00 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Boston won't  be able to acquire Kawhi without including Tatum as too many teams could easily beat any other offer.  If you don't want Kawhi that is your choice, but I personally like winning titles so I'd absolutely trade Tatum for Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought as long as Kawhi promised to extend

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2018, 01:28:47 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Boston won't  be able to acquire Kawhi without including Tatum as too many teams could easily beat any other offer.  If you don't want Kawhi that is your choice, but I personally like winning titles so I'd absolutely trade Tatum for Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought as long as Kawhi promised to extend

I'd like to find out if this current team, when healthy, isn't already good enough to win a title.  I suspect they are, in which case, trading our best young player, and a player who I think will be a MVP level player in his prime, would be unnecessary and foolish.

Now, if you don't think the team is good enough as is, then I can understand wanting to trade Tatum for Kawhi.

Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2018, 01:36:34 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I suspect (good health, godwilling), that this team will be good enough to win a title in the next couple of years. 

League dynamic is going to start shifting from this "Lebron v. Golden State" phase pretty shortly and Boston is in prime shape to one of the teams to capitalize.

All they need is health. 

Hell, they're a mid 50 win team this season despite all the injury woes & this only being Tatum's rookie year. 

Celtics are certainly trending upwards. 


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Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2018, 02:30:27 PM »

Offline eja117

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If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.