Tatum is the youngest rookie ever to lead a to 50+ win team in minutes played

[smokeablount]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.

[bdm860]

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

A ten year Euro vet would've spent 0 years on an NBA team.  He is a rookie.

This part seems inconsistent to me.  A 10 year Euro vet, would likely not be part of that year's draft class their first year in the NBA. 

Saric for example, drafted in 2014, didn't start playing until '16-'17.  The first quote from you sounds like he shouldn't have even been in the running for ROY last season, but the second quote sounds like he should have been.

[tazzmaniac]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.

You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely. 

[CelticsElite]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

[tazzmaniac]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

You may not like it but it is the NBA eligibility rules.  There is no breaking of the rules so their is no cheating. 

[kozlodoev]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Sure. He's also an year older, unfair as well. Let's restrict ROY to 19-year olds only. But not the type that forgo college to play professionally for a year, unfair advantage right there.

[Donoghus]

Honestly, I'm fine with how the NBA defines "rookie". 

However, let's not kid ourselves here;  Not all NBA rookies are created the same.  There is a big difference btw a one & done,  a Euro coming over at 24, a one & done with a year of NBA seasoning sans actually playing, a 4 year college senior, etc.....

[Moranis]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

The DLeague or European players are paid by a professional sports team.  Are they not rookies?  If you believe the reports, Deandre Ayton got paid a lot of money to play at Arizona, will he not be a rookie next year?  Should we start separating rookies by age or years of prior college experience?  I mean a 19 year old that had 1 year of college isn't the same as a 23 year, 4 year starter in college.  A guy that goes to Duke has way better coaching, training, etc. then a guy that goes to Loyola-Chicago, should we treat them differently?

[CelticsElite]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Sure. He's also an year older, unfair as well. Let's restrict ROY to 19-year olds only. But not the type that forgo college to play professionally for a year, unfair advantage right there.

forget about the age thing for a second because she doesn’t dictate performance

Do you agree a extra year of nba coaching is a valuable benefit?

[byennie]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Sure. He's also an year older, unfair as well. Let's restrict ROY to 19-year olds only. But not the type that forgo college to play professionally for a year, unfair advantage right there.

forget about the age thing for a second because she doesn’t dictate performance

Do you agree a extra year of nba coaching is a valuable benefit?

Sure it is. So is being drafted by a bad team that gives you minutes (if you want to win a rookie award). So is 4 years of college, euro experience, playing in a fast paced system, etc, etc.

I think the point is that most people aren't striving for a perfect definition of rookie, just a simple one. It's not cheating just because it makes you grumpy to see Simmons get rookie accolades. The playing field for rookies isn't something that can be made perfectly even.

[smokeablount]

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

A ten year Euro vet would've spent 0 years on an NBA team.  He is a rookie.

This part seems inconsistent to me.  A 10 year Euro vet, would likely not be part of that year's draft class their first year in the NBA. 

Saric for example, drafted in 2014, didn't start playing until '16-'17.  The first quote from you sounds like he shouldn't have even been in the running for ROY last season, but the second quote sounds like he should have been.

To me the difference is 'injured guy' -> draft class (injuries are unfortunate but I don't think you should get a do-over if you were already in the league) and 'euro that was never in the NBA' -> Draft class.

Honestly, I wish everyone would stick to their draft class, but to me that's just my opinion and I don't think that's what actually should be done.  It's not even possible, as you guys pointed out in the case of 10 year Euro vets. 

But I think if you were in the league for a year reaping numerous benefits of being in a pro organization as a professional, you are not a rookie in the league in your 2nd year.  That's my opinion, but I also think changes need to be made so this is the case in reality. 

And in Ben Simmons' case, where he could have played year 1 but never suited up because he put his bonus above his team... and he didn't go from leading Duke to a title to the NBA as 'grizzled 19 year old vet', he was coasting at irrelevant LSU and couldn't even lead them to the tourney as a 'generational #1 pick' and with a 4-star prospect teammate (Blakeney)... Yeah, I think Mitchell and Tatum, who did it 'the right way,' deserve to win in the only chance they'll get more than a kinda lazy and selfish Simmons deserves a make-up call.   

Simmons is a great player, let him worry about All-Star games and All-NBA teams. 

[moiso]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Duke may have better coaches/trainers/nutritionists than the Sixers.

[smokeablount]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

Great insight.  Moranis and Tazz, please specifically address this and only this bolded point.

You're the one trying to tie a player's contract to the ROY award not me.  NBA rules define ROY eligibility based on actual playing time not on a player's contract.  A player in his 4th reason is still on his "rookie contract" but isn't considered a rookie unless he missed the prior 3 seasons completely.

Yes we know what the rules are, and we think they're silly and inconsistent, and should change.   

The rules right now support guys like Lebron basically get to call their own fouls.  Do we all have to blindly support how that's going because 'it's the rules'?  What about hand-checking on defense?  That used to be allowed, but people thought it should be changed.  Would you have been vehemently arguing against changing those rules, and then when they changed, flip flop completely and pretend you never had your previous opinion, because of 'the rules'? 

Rules, laws, social customs... They change all the time.  Lots of us think Simmons shouldn't be in the running for this, and 'it's the rules' isn't a good enough retort.  Not for me at least.  If we never changed the rules, black people and women wouldn't be voting.

And again, why is it that a rookie on a 4 year deal who missed his entire 1st year is a 'rookie 1st year player' in his 2nd year but when his 4 year contract expires, he's in his fifth year?  Can you speak to that inconsistency, and defend it, without relying on some version of 'it's the rules'?

[smokeablount]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Duke may have better coaches/trainers/nutritionists than the Sixers.

LSU doesn't. 

[Ilikesports17]

Even injured, Simmons had an extra year of nba coaches/trainers/nutritionists. That’s essentially a benefit that the other rookies didn’t get. A head start is cheating . Shouldn’t be considered rookie

Duke may have better coaches/trainers/nutritionists than the Sixers.

No they don't.