Tatum is the youngest rookie ever to lead a to 50+ win team in minutes played

[green_bballers13]

Tatum is better than I thought he would be. He is better than Pierce was in his rookie year. I'm not sure if any stat backs that up. Just going on the eye test.

IDK about being better than Pierce.  Pierce was really good his rookie year, and it was fairly obvious right from the get go he was going to be a star.

I still feel like Pierce doesn't get quite the recognition he deserves for just how good he was in his prime because he toiled away on some utterly terrible teams.  2004-2008 Pierce was a MVP caliber player.  He could literally do just about anything on the court.

I agree. Pierce bulked up as he got into his prime and became a dominant offensive force. He still was really good as a rookie, though he only played 1/2 the year. Tatum has already played more, and has won more, so it is easy to say that he's having a better rookie year. Tatum is longer than Paul, and has his refined offensive game, including driving/shooting.

I am not saying that Tatum will bulk up, and I'm not saying that he will achieve what Paul did. That would discredit Paul. I'm just saying that Tatum has had a better rookie year, and in my eyes, looks better than Pierce in 1998-99.

[BringToughnessBack]

I am thinking this might be the best Celtics rookie performance while factoring in age since a certain legend flew into town in 79! One could argue, for his age, he is close to touching that legend. Wasnt Bird 23 in his first season? Pierce was 21. 4 years younger then Bird and showing clear signs of cornerstone altering talent!!

 I am super excited to imagine Tatum in 3 years. I bet he rises up in playoffs as well. He will need to for us to win first round.

[green_bballers13]

I am thinking this might be the best Celtics rookie performance while factoring in age since a certain legend flew into town in 79! One could argue, for his age, he is close to touching that legend. Wasnt Bird 23 in his first season? Pierce was 21. 4 years younger then Bird and showing clear signs of cornerstone altering talent!!

 I am super excited to imagine Tatum in 3 years. I bet he rises up in playoffs as well. He will need to for us to win first round.

It's tough to compare them. Tatum walked onto a team at 19 with high expectations and highly competent teammates. This is atypical for top 3 picks. I won't be shocked if Tatum improves from now until he is 22-23.

Overall, Bird>Pierce>Tatum. Tatum is going to have to do a lot to change that, and it probably won't happen.

[Moranis]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

while he sat out injured.  People always disregard the injury part when they talk about these things. That matters.

[tazzmaniac]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

The NBA should solve the whole "Rookie of the Year" issue. You are a rookie the first year that you collect an NBA paycheck. It stinks if you get hurt. If you come back the next year, you're getting checks for the second year in a row. No longer a rookie. I don't understand why this is an issue.

The NBA doesn't need to solve anything.  Their long standing rule is being a rookie is based on playing time not collecting a paycheck.  That is not a novel approach. 

In major league baseball, you can have played some (130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched) at the major league level and still be considered a rookie.  In Nascar, you are a rookie in your first full season even if you've raced individual races in prior seasons.  In the NHL, a player is still rookie eligible if they haven't exceeded a games played threshold for prior seasons. 

Collecting a paycheck for however long does not prepare you for stepping on the court for the first time with Lebron or getting through the 82 game grind of your first actual season.  It doesn't help you earn the respect of your fellow NBA players. 

[More Banners]

I am thinking this might be the best Celtics rookie performance while factoring in age since a certain legend flew into town in 79! One could argue, for his age, he is close to touching that legend. Wasnt Bird 23 in his first season? Pierce was 21. 4 years younger then Bird and showing clear signs of cornerstone altering talent!!

 I am super excited to imagine Tatum in 3 years. I bet he rises up in playoffs as well. He will need to for us to win first round.

It's tough to compare them. Tatum walked onto a team at 19 with high expectations and highly competent teammates. This is atypical for top 3 picks. I won't be shocked if Tatum improves from now until he is 22-23.

Overall, Bird>Pierce>Tatum. Tatum is going to have to do a lot to change that, and it probably won't happen.

The tough thing about being a young Celtic is that poor Tatum could play here for 15 years, win multiple titles, get his number retired, be voted into Springfield, and easily still have Celtic fans who would say he wasn't as good as Bird and Pierce. And it could still be true. As a sports fanbase, we've been blessed.

[KGs Knee]

It's rather remarkable how similar Tatum's rookie numbers are to Pierce's rookie numbers.

Stats via BBall-Ref

Tatum has been slightly more efficient, while Pierce had a higher usage rate and played more minutes per game (although Pierce only played roughly half the season).  Their Per-36 numbers aren't very different at all.  Obviously they played in entirely different circumstances, but the data is very encouraging.

I'm thinking Springfield better get a spot ready for Jayson Tatum.

[smokeablount]

It was not by design thats for sure....

But what stands out is that, he was forced to this position and has helped the team win a share of games without Kyrie, Hayward

This is impressive.  He is growing up in dog years at the moment.   Next season once he adds 10 pounds of mass...he will be even better

He’ll be even better even if he puts on no pounds of mass, though I’m sure we all hope he does.

[smokeablount]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

[Moranis]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

[smokeablount]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

Why don’t you understand that? You’re disregarding plenty yourself- the nutrition component, the coaching component, the professional environment vs. doing whatever you want at a 3rd tier basketball college where everyone kisses your butt even when your effort sucks, etc.

Everyone arguing on either side here is disregarding things, including you.

Also, let’s be real. Simmons could have played, but held out due to contractual bonuses for winning RoTY. So a guy makes a fairly soft and not team-oriented decision, and the plan is to reward him for that with an award? Sorry, that’s not how real life works, and it shouldn’t be how NBA life works.

[green_bballers13]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

[tazzmaniac]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

The distinction is not always made.  Redshirt sophomores are still sophomores from a football standpoint.  They both are playing in their second season and have 2 more years of eligibility. 

You do realize that they didn't make this rule up for Simmons.  Blake Griffin missed his first season due to injury and won rookie of the year the next season. 

Rookie of the year is not based on draft class.  It is based on actual NBA playing time.  You can be a 10 year Euro vet and you're still consider a NBA rookie and eligible for ROY.   

[smokeablount]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

The distinction is not always made.  Redshirt sophomores are still sophomores from a football standpoint.  They both are playing in their second season and have 2 more years of eligibility. 

You do realize that they didn't make this rule up for Simmons.  Blake Griffin missed his first season due to injury and won rookie of the year the next season. 

Rookie of the year is not based on draft class.  It is based on actual NBA playing time.  You can be a 10 year Euro vet and you're still consider a NBA rookie and eligible for ROY.

The distinction is always made by professional broadcasters, and the term exists to differentiate the two.  A redshirt freshman or sophomore is not the same thing as a freshman or sophomore.  That's why it isn't the same word.

Yep, Griffin won it, and I was less fired up about it then but I didn't agree in 2009 or 2010 or whenever it was either. 

A ten year Euro vet would've spent 0 years on an NBA team.  He is a rookie.  Ben Simmons already had a full year with Philly, and he delayed his return when he was able to play so that he could make more money in bonuses at the expense of helping the team.  I don't see the parallel between him and a European player left overseas with no NBA time. 

[tazzmaniac]

Simmons is 4 wins away from joining that list.  Mitchell got awfully close, but the Jazz can't quite hit 50 wins.

How is Simmons four wins from joining that group?  He’s way older than Tatum.

Did you not read the opening post in the thread?

"There are only 4 other rookies that have done this are Kareem, Bird, Robinson, and Duncan."

Simmons is now 3 wins away from joining that list.

What you say is true, but Simmons is a redshirt rookie.  What he has achieved just underlines how talented a player he is but I don't put his achievements on the exact same playing field as Tatum because Simmons had an extra year to get his body ready for the NBA while he sat out his first season.

Tatum's second season in the NBA compared to Simmon's 'rookie' year would be a more fair comparison.  I believe Tatum will turn out to be a great player.  I'm just hoping we can hold onto him even if we make a big trade aka Leonard or Davis.

This redshirt argument is weak.  In college football, redshirted players are part of the team.  They spend the season practicing with the team, learning the playbook, etc.  They get coached like other players.  In some cases due to injury, they end up playing and lose their redshirt season. 

Simmons was recovering from foot surgery for most of that redshirt year.  He wasn't part of the team.  The coaches were focused on the season and the active players on the team not on Simmons' development.  Coach Brown didn't start coaching Simmons about the PG role until the offseason.  Playing actual NBA games is much more beneficial than sitting out.   

This analogy doesn’t work, because in football redshirt sophomores are called ‘redshirt sophomores’ and not ‘sophomores.’ The distinction is always made, 100 times out of 100. It should be made that way in the NBA as well.

A single injured guy’s quest to win an award designed for a different draft class should not spoil that same pursuit for 60 other people that are in the class that the award was designed for.

I still don't understand how people disregard the injury component.  Injuries suck.  You can't do anything for a long time.  You can't play basketball.  You can't even lift weights or do light jogging for months at a time (remember we are talking about season ending injuries, they aren't small).  Is Gordon Hayward better off because he got hurt and didn't play more than 5 minutes this season?  It is a ridiculous argument to make. 

Ben Simmons is a rookie.  He didn't play until this season.  That is really all that matters.

I think we are in agreement that injuries suck. I'd say there's consensus on this topic.

I think most people agree that a player that has been paid for a year (or two, or three, or even four) by a professional sports team is no longer a rookie. Do Embiid or Simmons have to wait longer for their 2nd contract b/c they were hurt? Beyond RoY award, the rookie designation only matters for salary purposes. Unfortunately they are inconsistent with each other.

I think you would have a point if the NBA disallowed communication/professional training/payment/etc with a player if they are out for their rookie year. Fortunately, NBA players are allowed to pay and communicate with injured rookies.

I don't think most people agree on that at all.  Certainly sports organizations don't.  As I mentioned in a previous post, NHL, MLB and NASCAR rookie eligibility rules allow some actual experience in prior seasons.  So the NBA is actually more restrictive.