Author Topic: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup  (Read 2279 times)

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Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2018, 08:26:10 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
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Kemba Walker / Tyus Jones / Aaron Brooks
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Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2018, 08:33:11 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2018, 08:50:21 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.

Buck, the rule started in 2016 and that year there were nearly 20 players that participated and returned to school. It's a great rule and it allows college players to obtain real feedback from NBA teams, as opposed to listening to false hopes from agents. Last year Wagner took advantage of that opportunity and apparently the feedback he received wasn't good. If not, he would've likely remained in the draft. To think that some 12 months later NBA teams will have a different view of him is a reach. You never answered what player you compare his ceiling to. I'm curious on how much you're actually overrating him.

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2018, 09:16:02 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.

Buck, the rule started in 2016 and that year there were nearly 20 players that participated and returned to school. It's a great rule and it allows college players to obtain real feedback from NBA teams, as opposed to listening to false hopes from agents. Last year Wagner took advantage of that opportunity and apparently the feedback he received wasn't good. If not, he would've likely remained in the draft. To think that some 12 months later NBA teams will have a different view of him is a reach. You never answered what player you compare his ceiling to. I'm curious on how much you're actually overrating him.

do you understand that big players usually take longer to develop?  Not all good ones are Ayton off the bat

Moritz was skinny last season and filled out nicely this past season (this is something he has had to work on from day 1).   This issue alone could make a difference between a big player being drafted to being undrafted

2nd he has done a nice job expanding his range.  He was one of the better 3 point shooting PF/C in all of NCAA.  But you see little value in this for some reason

Moritz has the size, strength, mobility, motor and IQ to be a more than adequate team defender under CBS.  Especially off the bench

nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become

It is safer to draft the Brogdons of the world from the 20s up to the end of the 2nd round. There is a decent track record of these kind of players at least helping you out in some type of capacity (off bench/specialist).

When you have multiple picks you can take a chance.  The Celts dont this season

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2018, 09:25:39 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.

If he is as good as you describe him to be, he would have rocked it this season ...instead he struggled. It wasn't even close

He got the mins.  But he showed little in terms of consistency.  Poor 2nd half.   Just too skinny and has average IQ

He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft.  Likely will go in the 2nd round  again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier

He should stay play another season of college ball to try to improve his standings in the draft imo
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 09:34:05 PM by triboy16f »

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2018, 09:48:47 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.


nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become

He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft.  Likely will go in the 2nd round  again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier

Who are you talking about? Cheick?

You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.

Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.

If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2018, 09:50:36 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I propose that we henceforth refer to bucketgetter as "Buckets" on a job well done.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 09:56:31 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2018, 11:15:45 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.


nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become

He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft.  Likely will go in the 2nd round  again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier

Who are you talking about? Cheick?

You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.

Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.

If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.
If teams actually think Diallo is a high upside prospect, he'll be gone before we pick.  High upside prospects don't last to the late 1st.  Diallo's athleticism doesn't make him a high upside prospect as a basketball player.  Although a freshman, he did practice against Fox, Monk, etc in the 2nd half of last season.  Diallo had a chance to step up for Kentucky this season but he didn't do so.  Don't see why you think he can develop into a PG.  If he succeeds it will be as an athletic D+3 wing.  A fast paced team like the Suns or Sixers would probably be better for him although he ought to consider going back to Kentucky and trying again in the weaker 2019 draft.       

I'd agree that Moritz Wagner doesn't seem to have much upside as a NBA prospect.  Ilyasova seems closer to his ceiling than his floor.  Haven't seen much of Bruce Bowen but his 3pt shooting is a concern and he's almost 22. 

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2018, 12:07:42 AM »

Offline triboy16f

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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.

TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.

Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.

He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.

Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.

And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.

We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?

In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.

Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.

So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.

Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.

You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.

yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind  taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing

You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.


nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become

He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft.  Likely will go in the 2nd round  again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier

Who are you talking about? Cheick?

You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.

Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.

If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.
If teams actually think Diallo is a high upside prospect, he'll be gone before we pick.  High upside prospects don't last to the late 1st.  Diallo's athleticism doesn't make him a high upside prospect as a basketball player.  Although a freshman, he did practice against Fox, Monk, etc in the 2nd half of last season.  Diallo had a chance to step up for Kentucky this season but he didn't do so.  Don't see why you think he can develop into a PG.  If he succeeds it will be as an athletic D+3 wing.  A fast paced team like the Suns or Sixers would probably be better for him although he ought to consider going back to Kentucky and trying again in the weaker 2019 draft.       

I'd agree that Moritz Wagner doesn't seem to have much upside as a NBA prospect.  Ilyasova seems closer to his ceiling than his floor.  Haven't seen much of Bruce Bowen but his 3pt shooting is a concern and he's almost 22.

A healthy Ilyasova would be a tremendous pickup at 27-29 in a draft

This fantasy in hoping a late 20s pick turns out to be a home run is .... 

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2018, 05:14:28 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol

Any one who fell for Dragan Bender has lost a great deal of respect for their scouting as I see it.   More hype than substance.

That being said, we all fall for guys each year.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 05:22:12 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2018, 10:21:44 AM »

Offline number_n9ne

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I like Mo Wagner a lot. Been on his hype train for a few weeks now. He is a late 1st, 2nd round pick, no doubt about that. I don't think he's the second coming of Dirk. But I think he has value at the 27-30 range. He's a 6'11(via ESPN) PF/C with a ton of energy. He's flying around doing everything when the team needs it. He put up 24 and 15 in his Final Four game (obviously with an * on the rebounding since Loyola-Chicago is a bunch of midgets.)

But looking at his fit as far as centers go on the C's, he's tall, shoots the 3 at a high level, can handle the ball, make the extra pass, is not a turnstile on D (he actually plays pretty solid D and has great help D, just doesn't block a lot of shots), his energy is contagious, and KG is his favorite basketball player. Seems like a match made in heaven. I don't get the hate, he's not a bad prospect. I want a center to develop (especially since Zizic is gone :'(.)
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Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2018, 12:17:09 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Quote
What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol

Any one who fell for Dragan Bender has lost a great deal of respect for their scouting as I see it.   More hype than substance.

That being said, we all fall for guys each year.

 :o
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Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2018, 06:33:23 PM »

Offline liam

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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2018, 09:50:43 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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4-5 so far for 11 pts and the Wolverines have a total of 2 players that are doing all the scoring so far

At this rate, Moritz printout of a 1st round ticket is close to complete (was afraid this was going to happen =T)

Re: PF Moritz Wagner would be a nice 2018 draft pickup
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2018, 09:54:51 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.

yup. he will be turning 21 at the end of this month

exactly.  Most big players take time to develop