Author Topic: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader  (Read 4117 times)

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Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2018, 10:11:55 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Someone's expectations are too high when back-of-the-bench 2nd round rookies are somehow expected to play like experienced veterans. That says more about the OPs lack of reasonableness than it does the players on the court. That's not a personal insult, that's a simple fact.

All it takes is to look a a guy like Draymond Green to understand this. Dray was terrible his first year. .354% eFG and almost as many personal fouls as points. Now he's an All-Star. That doesn't mean that Nader or Semi will ever develop into even good role players, but it does show how much of a learning curve most 2nd round rookies need to go through to get anywhere in the NBA .

The constant mentioning of Green, as it relates to either of these guys, really needs to stop. Not only is it laughable, but it's a discredit to Green and what he accomplished at the collegiate level. The guy was a first team all-American and led Michigan St. to 2 final four appearances. He's never been a good shooter, but he's always brought passion and toughness to the team. Most importantly, he's never looked lost; even as a rookie he played with poise and confidence. That's the polar opposite of what you see in Semi and Nader, players that look as confident as Adrian in Rocky 1.

Player development is not linear; sometimes players simply don't improve. These two guys have combined to play roughly 1300 minutes and I haven't seen one shred of improvement; in fact, they seem to have regressed.


Does rookie Green remind you of either of them?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUlyhysD9Lo

I don't think anyone that's rational would compare Semi to Green.  I also don't get the Green / Yabusele comps at all.  Draymond Green is about as unique a player as you'll find in a PF.

Having said that, those of us that went on record as wanting to take a flier on Dray in the 20s over Sullinger and/or Fab Melo, or to buy Jordan Bell last year, or any number of examples of obvious underrated 2nd rounders due to one of 2 extremes ('too raw' = DeAndre Jordan / 'limited upside' = Josh McRoberts), have a right to be annoyed at constantly whiffing on late 1st / early 2nd round picks. 

We just have to give credit where credit is due as well, and Danny obviously deserves a lot more credit than blame.  But if we've got smart posters here jumping on CBS for his subbing patterns and refusal to call TOs, and smart posters complaining that 2nd round rookies aren't playing like good 6th men on a top 5-6 team in the world, then this is fair game too.
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Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2018, 10:33:41 AM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Someone's expectations are too high when back-of-the-bench 2nd round rookies are somehow expected to play like experienced veterans. That says more about the OPs lack of reasonableness than it does the players on the court. That's not a personal insult, that's a simple fact.

All it takes is to look a a guy like Draymond Green to understand this. Dray was terrible his first year. .354% eFG and almost as many personal fouls as points. Now he's an All-Star. That doesn't mean that Nader or Semi will ever develop into even good role players, but it does show how much of a learning curve most 2nd round rookies need to go through to get anywhere in the NBA.

Couldn't agree more about Semi and Nader. These are end of the bench rookies playing against seasoned pros. So easy to sit on our sofas and criticize them.

Imagine being 3rd tier players competing against the greatest players in the game in front of an arena audience and be expected to outplay these stars. Totally unrealistic....

Last night the commentators were complimenting the team for doing as well as they were with several regulars out and the team basically making do with a couple of G-league level players.

Maybe one could make a case that they are far exceeding expectations considering we've only been blown out of one of the last 5 games.   

Here are some numbers for the past 6 games - Jaylen played in the Timberwolves game.

Celtics over Timberwolves Celtics win

Semi Minutes 6:49   0 points -4
Abdel 0 minutes
Both Tatum and Baynes -11

Indiana lose by 2
Semi  8:59        2 points +1
Abdel 7:43      3 points -4

Wizards lose by 1

Semi 27:14   5 points   -9
Abdel 23:55  10 points +1

Orlando win by 9
Semi 22:50   1 point    -11
Abdel 23:34  11 points -11

New Orleans lose by 19
Semi 23:22  3 points   -1
Abdel 21:32  8 points -3
Several starters with high negative +/- numbers

OKC win by 1
Semi 27: 13   2 points +/- not given
Abdel 18:20  3 points

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2018, 10:35:23 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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They are garbage time players so what can we expect? I do question DA's handling of contracts for low round picks though.
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Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2018, 10:41:27 AM »

Offline footey

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2018, 10:57:50 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

I'm not going to make long term judgements on either because I don't see them in practice, and don't watch film the way coaches do, but right now neither belongs in the rotation.  Hopefully getting Brown back soon will limit their minutes.
'

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2018, 11:00:23 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Someone's expectations are too high when back-of-the-bench 2nd round rookies are somehow expected to play like experienced veterans. That says more about the OPs lack of reasonableness than it does the players on the court. That's not a personal insult, that's a simple fact.

All it takes is to look a a guy like Draymond Green to understand this. Dray was terrible his first year. .354% eFG and almost as many personal fouls as points. Now he's an All-Star. That doesn't mean that Nader or Semi will ever develop into even good role players, but it does show how much of a learning curve most 2nd round rookies need to go through to get anywhere in the NBA .

The constant mentioning of Green, as it relates to either of these guys, really needs to stop. Not only is it laughable, but it's a discredit to Green and what he accomplished at the collegiate level. The guy was a first team all-American and led Michigan St. to 2 final four appearances. He's never been a good shooter, but he's always brought passion and toughness to the team. Most importantly, he's never looked lost; even as a rookie he played with poise and confidence. That's the polar opposite of what you see in Semi and Nader, players that look as confident as Adrian in Rocky 1.

Player development is not linear; sometimes players simply don't improve. These two guys have combined to play roughly 1300 minutes and I haven't seen one shred of improvement; in fact, they seem to have regressed.


Does rookie Green remind you of either of them?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUlyhysD9Lo

I don't think anyone that's rational would compare Semi to Green.  I also don't get the Green / Yabusele comps at all.  Draymond Green is about as unique a player as you'll find in a PF.

Having said that, those of us that went on record as wanting to take a flier on Dray in the 20s over Sullinger and/or Fab Melo, or to buy Jordan Bell last year, or any number of examples of obvious underrated 2nd rounders due to one of 2 extremes ('too raw' = DeAndre Jordan / 'limited upside' = Josh McRoberts), have a right to be annoyed at constantly whiffing on late 1st / early 2nd round picks. 

We just have to give credit where credit is due as well, and Danny obviously deserves a lot more credit than blame.  But if we've got smart posters here jumping on CBS for his subbing patterns and refusal to call TOs, and smart posters complaining that 2nd round rookies aren't playing like good 6th men on a top 5-6 team in the world, then this is fair game too.

My complaint is more on Ainge filling out the roster with the trash brothers, than it is about them actually being trash. In fact, I've been on the record since pre-season that they are both bums and was met with plenty of backlash from some posters that had overrated both based on summer league/g-league performance.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:12:55 AM by Eddie20 »

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2018, 11:01:35 AM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

I'm not going to make long term judgements on either because I don't see them in practice, and don't watch film the way coaches do, but right now neither belongs in the rotation.  Hopefully getting Brown back soon will limit their minutes.
'

Just curious....what would you reasonably expect from end of the bench players against seasoned veterans? 

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2018, 11:12:02 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

I'm not going to make long term judgements on either because I don't see them in practice, and don't watch film the way coaches do, but right now neither belongs in the rotation.  Hopefully getting Brown back soon will limit their minutes.
'

Just curious....what would you reasonably expect from end of the bench players against seasoned veterans?

How about playing with a little confidence and showing you're worthy of being on an NBA player? At the end of the day, they're still "professionals", right? Players like Powe, Gomes, etc. never looked completely petrified out there.

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2018, 11:51:49 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

I'm not going to make long term judgements on either because I don't see them in practice, and don't watch film the way coaches do, but right now neither belongs in the rotation.  Hopefully getting Brown back soon will limit their minutes.
'

Just curious....what would you reasonably expect from end of the bench players against seasoned veterans?

Playing better than they are now, that's for sure.  I'd settle for below average at this point.

Did you not think they looked terrible?

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2018, 11:52:57 AM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2018, 11:53:10 AM »

Offline ozgod

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I kind of expect end of bench rookies to be trash, that's why they are end of bench players. I don't know why people expect more from them. We're ravaged by injury and that's why they're playing. I expected a bit more from Semi though.
You just contradicted yourself regarding expectations, but I actually feel the same way.  ;)  Why do we all expect more from Semi?  Is it just b/c he already has an NBA body and Brad says he's the best 1-on-1 defender on the team?  I dunno, but he clearly still has the "deer in the headlights" look to him.  In the 1st quarter, he had baseline position and tried to take it strong to the cup and got blocked because his move was too predictable.  I expect a more confident Semi with more developed upfake next season.

Haha I guess.  ;D From his preseason and early season form I expected Semi to be a bit less trash than Nader. He failed to meet my low expectations (on the offensive side at least), while for Nader I had no expectations other than him giving us a few minutes here and there at the end of games.
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Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2018, 11:59:34 AM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

Got a point about Nader's confidence. He often looks tentative out there...one could also say deliberate. Perhaps, afraid to make a mistake. Ojeleye doesn't back down to anyone. Not sure I would put him in the same category.

As for the Powe comparison....not sure it is a fair one. He was a consensus high pick (possibly lottery). Injuries kept him from being drafted that high. I believe he was college player of the year at one point. Not sure though....Gomes was a find at the 50th spot. 

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2018, 12:08:02 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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People are mostly upset with Nader because of the 4 free throw misses.  Plenty of players miss 4 in a row.  He just happened to do  it on the same trip. Big deal. Two future hall of famers, Melo and Westbrook, missed free throws last night in a far more critical game situation than Nader's.

He is a late 2nd round pick who clearly struggles with his confidence. I for one am rooting like hell for the guy to do well.  He shows great effort.  Do I think he will be on the team next year? Probably not.  But while he is here, I am willing to overlook his mistakes, and cheer on when he makes plays.

Nader didn't miss free throws last night, but still looked terrible.  Frequently dribbling into double teams, bad turnovers, struggled to defend without fouling.  Ojeleye had one of the worst shooting displays I've ever seen, just not even close on most of his shots, hitting the rim would be an improvement for him.  Neither looked like an NBA player last night.

Got a point about Nader's confidence. He often looks tentative out there...one could also say deliberate. Perhaps, afraid to make a mistake. Ojeleye doesn't back down to anyone. Not sure I would put him in the same category.

As for the Powe comparison....not sure it is a fair one. He was a consensus high pick (possibly lottery). Injuries kept him from being drafted that high. I believe he was college player of the year at one point. Not sure though....Gomes was a find at the 50th spot.

In my previous response I believe I responded to the wrong poster???

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2018, 01:56:15 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Someone's expectations are too high when back-of-the-bench 2nd round rookies are somehow expected to play like experienced veterans. That says more about the OPs lack of reasonableness than it does the players on the court. That's not a personal insult, that's a simple fact.

All it takes is to look a a guy like Draymond Green to understand this. Dray was terrible his first year. .354% eFG and almost as many personal fouls as points. Now he's an All-Star. That doesn't mean that Nader or Semi will ever develop into even good role players, but it does show how much of a learning curve most 2nd round rookies need to go through to get anywhere in the NBA .

The constant mentioning of Green, as it relates to either of these guys, really needs to stop. Not only is it laughable, but it's a discredit to Green and what he accomplished at the collegiate level. The guy was a first team all-American and led Michigan St. to 2 final four appearances. He's never been a good shooter, but he's always brought passion and toughness to the team. Most importantly, he's never looked lost; even as a rookie he played with poise and confidence. That's the polar opposite of what you see in Semi and Nader, players that look as confident as Adrian in Rocky 1.

Player development is not linear; sometimes players simply don't improve. These two guys have combined to play roughly 1300 minutes and I haven't seen one shred of improvement; in fact, they seem to have regressed.


Does rookie Green remind you of either of them?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUlyhysD9Lo

I don't think anyone that's rational would compare Semi to Green.  I also don't get the Green / Yabusele comps at all.  Draymond Green is about as unique a player as you'll find in a PF.

Having said that, those of us that went on record as wanting to take a flier on Dray in the 20s over Sullinger and/or Fab Melo, or to buy Jordan Bell last year, or any number of examples of obvious underrated 2nd rounders due to one of 2 extremes ('too raw' = DeAndre Jordan / 'limited upside' = Josh McRoberts), have a right to be annoyed at constantly whiffing on late 1st / early 2nd round picks. 

We just have to give credit where credit is due as well, and Danny obviously deserves a lot more credit than blame.  But if we've got smart posters here jumping on CBS for his subbing patterns and refusal to call TOs, and smart posters complaining that 2nd round rookies aren't playing like good 6th men on a top 5-6 team in the world, then this is fair game too.
So you are on record here at CB as wanting Ainge to draft Draymond Green, Jordan Bell, DeAndre Jordan and Josh McRoberts before the drafts went down? We can look this up in your old posts?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:11:36 PM by nickagneta »

Re: The Trash Brothers - Semi and Nader
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2018, 04:14:49 PM »

Offline mgent

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I kind of expect end of bench rookies to be trash, that's why they are end of bench players. I don't know why people expect more from them. We're ravaged by injury and that's why they're playing. I expected a bit more from Semi though.
You just contradicted yourself regarding expectations, but I actually feel the same way.  ;)  Why do we all expect more from Semi?  Is it just b/c he already has an NBA body and Brad says he's the best 1-on-1 defender on the team? I dunno, but he clearly still has the "deer in the headlights" look to him.  In the 1st quarter, he had baseline position and tried to take it strong to the cup and got blocked because his move was too predictable.  I expect a more confident Semi with more developed upfake next season.

That's part of it.  Brad has continuously hailed Semi's defensive talent, yet we've never seen him give us any of those game-changing moments that Smart will whip out of his back pocket several times a quarter.

The other part of why he's expected to produce, is because Brad is giving him all these minutes.

Kinda like how we expected RJ Hunter to start doing stuff towards the end.  Brad spent all that time playing him and giving him the experience, even over Rozier (hey, maybe Yabu will end up like Rozier).

At a certain point we expect Brad to either stop playing him, or for us to see something else out of him.
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