Rear view on the MVP award

[Androslav]

I still can't believe that he won the MVP.
The biggest ball hog.

We had a thread
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?action=post;topic=90076.60;last_msg=2279360

1) Last year there was an argument that he didn't have a much help and that was one of the strongest points for his award.
 
Even though he was the one whose selfish playstyle repelled KD to leave. Its not a secret that guy was fed up playing with him and left. This year he got Paul George, a top 10-15 NBA player, IMO better player than WB, they got old Carmelo too. They have one of the (4-7) best centers in the league in Steven Adams. And in spite, all of that their record is almost the same as it was last year. Maybe they will squeeze a win or 2 more, maybe not.
Why? because RW knows only how to play his way. No matter the supporting cast.
That seems very unadaptable, unintelligent BB wise.

2) Triple-doubles
Double digits - So what? Who cares?
I don't. Wilt didn't too, as Bill Simmons said and he was right on that one.
If TDs were something impactful, we would be having better players achieving them more frequently.
further TD flaw - RW begged his centers and forwards not to grab boards. To me thats pathetic and definitely not worthy of upping his MVP case, but punishing it.
further TD flaw - Steven Adams is 10 times the rebounder that WB is. In the last 3 years, WB is grabbing more rebs and for some of the fans that is the proof that he more potent glass cleaner. Absurdity, shame on you uneducated voters. If matched up together Russ would get 1/10 that would bounce his way.

3) It is a regular season award.
Oh reeeally? It is something they like to say, But then, how come each time a player repeats a newly found regular season success in the playoffs he suddenly gets recognition in the next regular season? There are literally 100s of examples of these. Remember this before this year's playoffs. For example: If DeRozan makes the finals now, next regular season he would be a surefire MVP candidate, not a footnote MVP candidate he is now. Even if he has the same numbers - crazy but true.
You know why it is like that, it is because we all know that big boys and non-tanking teams play in the postseason, that's why. And we are right about that one, as it is within a tougher competition without B2B and without those irrelevant tanking "noise" numbers.

4) When KD was injured in 2014-15 Russell played his similar type of game.
He was their leader, and they missed the playoffs. They needed overtime to beat teams like Philly. And Philly's on-court product back then was a mess on a cube.
In my book, a real MVP material doesn't miss the playoffs easily, especially when on a vet team with years of consecutive postseason appearances. It is not what AD is experiencing in NOLA, they are truly incompetent and with the worst medical staff in the league.

5) He can't shoot. I mean he can and does often, but not well, 31% for a career (5% below league avgerage) - last year unsustainable 34%, this one 29%.
And we are in the 3pt shot era. Seems kinda important, even if you are a sports jurnalist? Guess not. He is nod above the dreaded trio of Charles Barkley (26%), Josh Smith (29%), Marcus Smart (29%) level of shooting.

6) There is no off-ball skill that is he possesses.
Spot- up shooting, defending a guy without the ball, cutting - no frequency and efficiency on these. He just doesn't understand that concept. Is it effort? No, he runs and fights like a demon with the ball and when defending post-ups. It is BBIQ, not effort.

He is an amazing specimen, his athletic bursts are NATGEO stuff.
But MVP - especially after that Steph Currys unanimous Mona Lisa season - was a bad decision.
He won 1 playoff game. his avg game 47% USG%, shooting% well below league avg. It was predictable, to say the least. This year those same voters will vote for Harden, feeling guilty they didn't do the same last year. That's why from time to time we have a feel-sorry for MVP. Noone will admit it now of course. Usually, that kind of stuff happens 4-5 years after.

To Russ and supporters, PG is on the door. Just like KD was.
When he leaves it will once again be proved that great (high format) players don't want to play with him. MVP that chases out multiple MVPs/All-stars out of town, is an All-star in my book.

[celticsclay]

The thunder were playing really well before they lost roberson

[PhoSita]

I think when it comes down to it, people don't like Harden.  Media members find his iso-heavy, drives-or-threes game joyless, methodical.  So they look for excuses to give the MVP to anybody else.

The triple double thing was an excuse to give it to Westbrook even though I think most sophisticated NBA observers understood Harden had a much larger effect on his team winning basketball games.

[Big333223]

I think when it comes down to it, people don't like Harden.  Media members find his iso-heavy, drives-or-threes game joyless, methodical.  So they look for excuses to give the MVP to anybody else.

The triple double thing was an excuse to give it to Westbrook even though I think most sophisticated NBA observers understood Harden had a much larger effect on his team winning basketball games.

Yep. Even this season, people are trying to shoehorn Anthony Davis into Harden's spot. If the Pelicans wind up with homecourt in the first round of the playoffs, it'll be amazing and Davis deserves some MVP votes for sure. But Harden should win it and should've won it last year.

[ChillyWilly]

The hate on RWB is so strong. The Thunder are 41-29 in the West. Are we saying they would be even better deferring to inferior players and toning down RWB dominance?

If people have such an issue with Westbrook ball dominance (which by the way I've proven on other threads is a myth) why isn't Billy Donovan taking heat?

I get the feeling people don't like RWB because of his personality....BUT...that doesn't mean he's not a top 5 player in this league. We hate the fact this guy can put up huge numbers even with other "Superstars" on the team.

People preach superstars win in this league yet we hate when a superstar acts like a superstar because that's not being a humble team player.

[johnnygreen]

Westbrook was absolutely deserving of the MVP last season, and may be on his way to winning it again. The level of effort needed to average a triple double for an entire season is off the charts, and he has a chance to do it in back-to-back seasons. He brings excitement to every game he plays in. As for OKC's record this season, that team really struggled in the first month or two, in trying to gel with their two big additions. BTW, with all of three point shooting now, isn't it easier for guards to grab rebounds now off of three point misses? So I'm not sure that Westbrook needs to ask the big men to not grab rebounds away from him.

Curious as to who the OP thought should have won last season, and who should win this season. Harden pretty much proved last season in the playoffs that he was no MVP, after he flat out quit during the middle of a playoff game against the Spurs. It was one of the most pathetic acts in sports that I have ever seen. Personally, I find Harden to be unwatchable and boring.

[Monkhouse]

To be completely honest.. I love Westbrook, but he isn't the smartest player and at times can be iso heavy. Did Durant really leave because of Westbrook, or did he leave because he wasn't having fun not winning? He always stated his main goal was to win championships and have fun doing it.

You proclaim Westbrook choked not making the playoffs in the Sixers loss, and say he has never impressed at all in the playoffs, but Durant didn't get to the WCF by himself in 2012. And certainly not with the help of an upcoming superstar in Harden, who at the time, was relegated to sixth man. Who also by the way, had the worst choke job against the Spurs last year.

If you have ever taken a look at OKC, those teams minus Durant, Ibaka and Westbrook weren't really that good. Jeremy Lamb was a bust at OKC, and the only good thing they had left was Andre Roberson who was their most important defender. OKC has always suffered from 3 vital problems that never seemed to be resolved even with this new revamped roster.

1) Ball movement or crisp passing (too iso heavy)

2) Consistent bench

3) Bad coaching. I'm not suggesting Donovan is bad, but his offensive scheme really doesn't seem to be that much better than Scott Brook's-givetheballtoWestbrookorKD-andgetoutoftheway offense.

The moment Roberson was out, I knew they were gonna suffer. Considering their team has the worst ranked bench, and Melo has fallen off a cliff on a sharp decline.

[Big333223]

The hate on RWB is so strong. The Thunder are 41-29 in the West. Are we saying they would be even better deferring to inferior players and toning down RWB dominance?

If people have such an issue with Westbrook ball dominance (which by the way I've proven on other threads is a myth) why isn't Billy Donovan taking heat?

I get the feeling people don't like RWB because of his personality....BUT...that doesn't mean he's not a top 5 player in this league. We hate the fact this guy can put up huge numbers even with other "Superstars" on the team.

People preach superstars win in this league yet we hate when a superstar acts like a superstar because that's not being a humble team player.

It is truly an amazing feat to do what Westbrook did last season, as it is to see what he's doing this season. But it's not smart basketball.

[ChillyWilly]

I was bored today so I did some number pulling. I was curious what RWB win/loss % was when he scores triple doubles compared to when he doesn't.

RWB has 100 career triple doubles and his record in those games is 85-15 for an .850 win %

OCK Thunder since drafting RWB is 482-310 for an .608 win %

[Who]

I don't understand the criticism of Westbrook's ball dominant ways this year versus last year. What is the problem with how he plays?

Paul George is better playing off of someone else. He has never been the type to run an offense. He always needed a better PG during his Indiana years and both he and Indiana's offense suffered from not him having it. He is averaging 1 less shot a game than when he was solo-scorer in Indiana and the same assists. That isn't much difference from being the main guy to becoming a sidekick behind Westbrook.

Carmelo Anthony? Are you kidding me? The guy is past it. He is nowhere near the player he once was. He is not even as good as Steven Adams yet is billed as being part of Big Three for OKC. Nonsense. He isn't up to the job. His defense is lousy. His offense is still good but is no longer a dominant scorer. Does it really help improve the team to have Melo get enough shots to put up 20-22ppg than score 15-16ppg? I don't think so. Melo has never had great efficiency and Westbrook does a better job of creating scoring opportunities for his teammates than Melo. I know who I want to have the ball = Westbrook.

The supporting cast?

This is one of the worst supporting casts in the league. Steven Adams is a valuable defender and rebounder but he is a garbage man for the most part on offense. A below par passer. A non-shooter and limited shot-creator. Using him as a garbage man makes the most out of his limited offensive strengths.

Patrick Patterson? Black hole. Doesn't pass the ball. Spot up shooter. No shot-creation. Wants to play off of ball-dominant (like Westbrook).

Roberson? One of the worst offensive perimeter players in the league. Bad ball-handling. Bad passing ability. Bad shooting ability. Only useful in transition and as a cutter. Otherwise, a large net negative. Good things rarely happen from this guy touching the ball. You want to keep it away from him as much as possible.

Abrines? Spot up shooter. Doesn't bring much else to the table. Wants to play off of a ball-dominant player.

Jerami Grant? A non-passer. A cutter, transition player and streaky spot up shooter. Wants to play off of a ball-dominant player.

Huestis? Lousy player.

Felton? Serviceable backup PG who is getting on in years.

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What in the world about this team makes people think it would be better by having Russell Westbrook doing much less on offense?

I don't get it. The talent isn't there.

[Who]

OKC have bad ball movement because:

(1) None of their big men are above average passers.

In fact, they have only one big man who is even passable (Adams) as a passer.

(2) Their role player 2s and 3s are limited ball-handlers and passers.

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The makeup of their squad is first and foremost the number #1 problem with OKC's lack of ball movement.

Until OKC gets 1-2 big men who can pass the ball and gets rid of Roberson and replaces him with somebody who can actually contribute on offense, this team will not be able to fix it's ball-movement problems.

IF they actually do make those changes, then Westbrook will be on the hot seat and forced to adapt his game to make the most of his teammates. Not now though. His teammates don't have the capabilities offensively to make up for Westbrook doing less. Westbrook doing less will hurt OKC rather than help them.

And I say this as someone who gets irritated by ball-dominant players (especially PGs!!!).

But in this situation, the blame is on Sam Presti and the rest of the front office. Not Westbrook. They have to do their job better to build a more team-orientated offense. They need bigs who can pass and a two guard who can contribute on offense (instead of Roberson). Then they can worry about Westbrook improving his team-game.

[PhoSita]

OKC's ball movement has been bad for years and the only constant is Westbrook.

Last year I heard the same things about the terrible supporting cast and lo and behold, many of those guys went to different teams this year and look like useful, even above average players.

Basketball is a team sport and Westbrook plays it like it's all up to him to win the game and he doesn't want it any other way.  He's exciting to watch but I really don't think he actually helps his team anywhere close to the extent that a casual fan might assume based on his counting stats or his "wow" explosively athletic highlight plays.

[KGs Knee]

Agree with the OP 100%.

Westbrook is an overrated stat padder who does little to actually make his teammates better. He the epitome of the selfish, me first, type of player we see way too much of these days. He didn't deserve that MVP last year, and as far as I am concerned, Harden was the real MVP.

[Moranis]

Paul George has the 2nd highest TS% in his career this year.  He has the lowest TOV% of his career.  It seems like he is performing just fine next to Westbrook (obviously with RW he isn't getting the rebounds or assists as prior years, but that should be expected). 

Harden should win the award this year, but I can totally see Davis back dooring his way to it.

[chilidawg]

I don't understand the criticism of Westbrook's ball dominant ways this year versus last year. What is the problem with how he plays?

Paul George is better playing off of someone else. He has never been the type to run an offense. He always needed a better PG during his Indiana years and both he and Indiana's offense suffered from not him having it. He is averaging 1 less shot a game than when he was solo-scorer in Indiana and the same assists. That isn't much difference from being the main guy to becoming a sidekick behind Westbrook.

Carmelo Anthony? Are you kidding me? The guy is past it. He is nowhere near the player he once was. He is not even as good as Steven Adams yet is billed as being part of Big Three for OKC. Nonsense. He isn't up to the job. His defense is lousy. His offense is still good but is no longer a dominant scorer. Does it really help improve the team to have Melo get enough shots to put up 20-22ppg than score 15-16ppg? I don't think so. Melo has never had great efficiency and Westbrook does a better job of creating scoring opportunities for his teammates than Melo. I know who I want to have the ball = Westbrook.

The supporting cast?

This is one of the worst supporting casts in the league. Steven Adams is a valuable defender and rebounder but he is a garbage man for the most part on offense. A below par passer. A non-shooter and limited shot-creator. Using him as a garbage man makes the most out of his limited offensive strengths.

Patrick Patterson? Black hole. Doesn't pass the ball. Spot up shooter. No shot-creation. Wants to play off of ball-dominant (like Westbrook).

Roberson? One of the worst offensive perimeter players in the league. Bad ball-handling. Bad passing ability. Bad shooting ability. Only useful in transition and as a cutter. Otherwise, a large net negative. Good things rarely happen from this guy touching the ball. You want to keep it away from him as much as possible.

Abrines? Spot up shooter. Doesn't bring much else to the table. Wants to play off of a ball-dominant player.

Jerami Grant? A non-passer. A cutter, transition player and streaky spot up shooter. Wants to play off of a ball-dominant player.

Huestis? Lousy player.

Felton? Serviceable backup PG who is getting on in years.

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What in the world about this team makes people think it would be better by having Russell Westbrook doing much less on offense?

I don't get it. The talent isn't there.

Yup.