Author Topic: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely  (Read 10746 times)

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Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #195 on: March 18, 2018, 04:33:03 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.

Smart is clearly better on defense, but Olynyk is clearly better on offense.

Teams generally value offense more than defense, and big men are always paid more than guards, especially when that big man can shoot the three ball at a good rate.

The Celtics value players who make their team better. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018/lineups/

He is on most of the highest-rated lineups on the team.  They are not going to let him walk away if the price on him is $12-15M.


Of course the team values players that make them better.  But I seriously doubt anyone values Smart as a $15m per year player, including Ainge.

I guess we'll see who is right and who is wrong in about 4-5 months.

I am not suggesting that Ainge does value him at that (my guess is that deal would have been executed pre-season).  Ainge has a track record of trying to extend the younger players early on cap-friendly deals, and my guess is that Smart's agent knows this and wants to use the market to force a better deal.

I think the market for Smart will be very strong.  He is a starting-caliber PG who is one of the most elite defensive talents in the league.  Letting him walk at, let's say, $12M per when you would only go to $9M or $10M has a good chance of being Tony Allen-to-Memphis all over again.  And that turned out terrible for the Celtics. I do not know for sure but I would wager a lot of money that Danny would do that differently if he could go back in time.

Now if Smart gets an offer of $15M, when Ainge would only go half that, different story.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #196 on: March 18, 2018, 04:37:08 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

If that is all you think Smart is than you (a) do not watch enough Celtics games and (b) are going to be very surprised how much he gets paid.

If you think Smart is more than that you (a) don't watch the games objectively and (b) going to be very disappointed with what he's getting paid in years 2 and 3 compared to production.

If Smart gets more than an AB type contract it won't be here and thank goodness for that. You don't over pay for bench guards who can't space the floor or finish at the rim.

Please see my previous link to the lineup stats.  It does not get more objective than that.  Him and Jaylen Brown are the highest rated twosome on the team.  There is a reason for that, and a reason he shows up in most of the best lineups.  There is a reason he plays 30+ min per game, why he plays at the end of games, and why his injury may submarine any chances they have in the playoffs.

The Celtics know this stuff.  Ainge knows it, Stevens knows it.  A lot of the people here freak out about his shooting % and ignore all of the other stuff he does.  Someone else will recognize that and pay him.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #197 on: March 18, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.

Smart is clearly better on defense, but Olynyk is clearly better on offense.

Teams generally value offense more than defense, and big men are always paid more than guards, especially when that big man can shoot the three ball at a good rate.

The Celtics value players who make their team better. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018/lineups/

He is on most of the highest-rated lineups on the team.  They are not going to let him walk away if the price on him is $12-15M.


Of course the team values players that make them better.  But I seriously doubt anyone values Smart as a $15m per year player, including Ainge.

I guess we'll see who is right and who is wrong in about 4-5 months.
I agree. Smart does not have a value of $12-15 million a year. But in the off chance some idiot of a GM decides to offer Smart 4 years at $50-60 million, there is no way Ainge matches it. He has too many people to pay in the next few years to take a big jump into the luxury tax on overpaying for Smart.

They raised ticket prices 40% over the past 2 seasons.  If they let him walk over a difference in salary of a couple million it is going to look real bad.

Again, if Ainge thinks he is worth $5M per and he gets $12M from somewhere else, that is one thing.  And that might be true because if I remember correctly they were not really close to getting anything done early this season.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #198 on: March 18, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

Obviously if Olynyk is more valuable than Giannis Antetokounmpo he's more valuable than Marcus Smart.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #199 on: March 18, 2018, 04:46:17 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

Obviously if Olynyk is more valuable than Giannis Antetokounmpo he's more valuable than Marcus Smart.

I am also not a fan of the using the term "overpaying."  What Olynyk got was what his market was.  That is "paying."

Now is he worth what he makes (ie value)?  I cannot answer that, and quite frankly do not think anyone here can (see any thread on Horford).  There are hundreds of people who work for NBA teams that try to correctly value players, and they still get it wrong all the time.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #200 on: March 18, 2018, 04:58:44 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

Characterizing Smart as a "defensive-oriented guard who can't shoot" is a about as strong an undersell as I could imagine.   I could go the other direction and call him a perennial defensive player of the year candidate with decent handle and good passing skills.   

I think you could even make the case that his scoring efficiency improves when he plays with scorers.

I think the tipping point for Smart is around 12M.   I also think Danny has been pretty good at gaging value.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #201 on: March 18, 2018, 05:28:08 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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He is a starting-caliber PG who is one of the most elite defensive talents in the league. 

I agree Smart is one of the best defensive players in the league.

I do not agree that Smart is a starting caliber PG.  You're not going to win very many games with a starting PG as offensively challenged as Smart.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #202 on: March 18, 2018, 10:27:12 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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He can't shoot, but he does add value on offense. He handles the ball well, passes well and makes winning plays. The team simply plays better on offense when he is on the floor. As far as I am concerned the real proof is that Brad wants him on the floor when the game is on the line. None of us know half of what Brad does about basketball, and he knows that the team is better with Smart on the floor than without.

Re: Smart has torn tendon - out indefinitely.
« Reply #203 on: March 19, 2018, 12:00:23 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Ainge disputes that Smart has a torn tendon.  Smart will get a second opinion!

https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1503793

Lol.  Play till it's time for us to dump you elsewhere, Marcus.
Who tf says that??

Danny Ainge.  Even if he stands to lose tens of millions of dollars.

TP, tar.  You're a legend.

Honestly, I'm just being myself.

That's what makes it so special, pal.
You seem a little unstable...
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Re: Smart has torn tendon - out indefinitely.
« Reply #204 on: March 19, 2018, 12:14:19 AM »

Online tarheelsxxiii

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Ainge disputes that Smart has a torn tendon.  Smart will get a second opinion!

https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1503793

Lol.  Play till it's time for us to dump you elsewhere, Marcus.
Who tf says that??

Danny Ainge.  Even if he stands to lose tens of millions of dollars.

TP, tar.  You're a legend.

Honestly, I'm just being myself.

That's what makes it so special, pal.
You seem a little unstable...

Workin' on it man, one day at a time.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 12:25:33 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #205 on: March 19, 2018, 03:59:48 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

Characterizing Smart as a "defensive-oriented guard who can't shoot" is a about as strong an undersell as I could imagine.   I could go the other direction and call him a perennial defensive player of the year candidate with decent handle and good passing skills.   

I think you could even make the case that his scoring efficiency improves when he plays with scorers.

I think the tipping point for Smart is around 12M.   I also think Danny has been pretty good at gaging value.

Not to nitpick here but since when is Smart a  DPOY candidate? I recognize you are being somewhat hyperbolic, but it speaks to a larger point that I actually think Smart might be slightly over rated defensively at this point. He's very good, but to me hes more an energy-grit-glue guy who makes some very wow plays than a shut down take a guy out of the game defensive player.

Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #206 on: March 19, 2018, 05:30:09 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Wonder if Smart played his last game in a Celtics uniform last Sunday.

Gonna miss his hustles regardless, but his shooting won't be missed.

He is a goner unfortunately

Reading Pacers will go hard after Randle or Gordon and Smart in the offseason

I think Danny offered Smart in the neighborhood of 8-10 million per season and Smart and his agent balked

Pacers can doll out 15 million a season to smart.  If I'm Smart I'm leaving

I don't think any team is going to be foolish enough to offer Smart $15m per. That's a huge overpay.

But if someone does, then yes, Smart will not be back with the Celtics. Ainge will never pay a defensive role player that kind of money.

Kelly Olynyk makes 15M per and Smart is a far better player.
Actually Olynyk is making 10.6M this year and that goes up to 12.2M (player option) in 3 more years.  The Heat overpaid for him but 3 point shooting bigs are more valued than defensive oriented guards that can't shoot.

Characterizing Smart as a "defensive-oriented guard who can't shoot" is a about as strong an undersell as I could imagine.   I could go the other direction and call him a perennial defensive player of the year candidate with decent handle and good passing skills.   

I think you could even make the case that his scoring efficiency improves when he plays with scorers.

I think the tipping point for Smart is around 12M.   I also think Danny has been pretty good at gaging value.

Not to nitpick here but since when is Smart a  DPOY candidate? I recognize you are being somewhat hyperbolic, but it speaks to a larger point that I actually think Smart might be slightly over rated defensively at this point. He's very good, but to me hes more an energy-grit-glue guy who makes some very wow plays than a shut down take a guy out of the game defensive player.
"Defensive oriented guard" and "perennial DPOY candidate" are two sides of a coin.  Each a similar stretch from reality in either direction.

FWIW, if he were healthy throughout this season it would not have surprised me to see him receive some DPOY consideration. Guy is pretty impactful and infectious defensively  when on the floor -- especially in the 4th.


Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #207 on: March 19, 2018, 07:36:24 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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"Defensive oriented guard" and "perennial DPOY candidate" are two sides of a coin.  Each a similar stretch from reality in either direction.
If Smart were "defensive oriented", he'd be a much better player. The problem is he isn't, and that's killing our team sometimes.
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Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #208 on: March 19, 2018, 07:43:37 AM »

Offline Androslav

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"Defensive oriented guard" and "perennial DPOY candidate" are two sides of a coin.  Each a similar stretch from reality in either direction.
If Smart were "defensive-oriented", he'd be a much better player. The problem is he isn't, and that's killing our team sometimes.
Koz, you are overthinking this.
Smart is a defensive-minded player. His decisionmaking is better at that end and his positive impact is felt more at that end.

Perennial DPOY he is not - you need to be durable for that and he hasn't shown that in 4 years.
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Re: UPDATE: Smart undergoes surgery, out indefinitely
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2018, 08:32:14 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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"Defensive oriented guard" and "perennial DPOY candidate" are two sides of a coin.  Each a similar stretch from reality in either direction.
If Smart were "defensive-oriented", he'd be a much better player. The problem is he isn't, and that's killing our team sometimes.
Koz, you are overthinking this.
Smart is a defensive-minded player. His decisionmaking is better at that end and his positive impact is felt more at that end.

Perennial DPOY he is not - you need to be durable for that and he hasn't shown that in 4 years.
Depends on how you define "defensive-minded" (I was being a bit facetious in the definition, obviously). There's no doubt that he's a better defensive than offensive player, but he doesn't know how to play within himself on offense. If he learned how to pull some punches, the team would be better for it.
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