Author Topic: Is this the 2nd time Euros brought something good that ruined the game for years  (Read 4117 times)

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Offline Who

  • James Naismith
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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Offline Sophomore

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

Offline KGs Knee

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

Offline Eja117

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.
Not buying that last sentence for a second. If anything I almost have to wonder if Kyrie could be better because he could play legit defense.

Offline Big333223

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I prefer a league that prioritizes skill over size so I like what's going on in the NBA.

I haven't seen anyone mention the change in illegal defense rules. To me, that's the biggest thing that changed the NBA. The 3-ball era seems like a reaction to the new, zone defenses allowed since, like, 2004, I think? The hand-checking thing is overblown.
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Offline Sophomore

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

Fair enough.

If you liked post play though, would you take the 1990s over the 1980s? I feel like the game was much more balanced in the 1980s. The pace through the mid-80s was about 100 possessions/game. In the 90s it went down to about 90 a game. The game got really slow, and a lot of the time you had four players standing around doing nothing.

Offline Sophomore

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I prefer a league that prioritizes skill over size so I like what's going on in the NBA.

I haven't seen anyone mention the change in illegal defense rules. To me, that's the biggest thing that changed the NBA. The 3-ball era seems like a reaction to the new, zone defenses allowed since, like, 2004, I think? The hand-checking thing is overblown.

I agree that the change in illegal defense rules was key. Celticshub had a good film study on this. In the 1990s you had to bring a true double or you'd get whistled. Nowadays, the far side post defender can shade into the lane without leaving his own man all alone. Makes it much harder to work the post.

Have there also been changes in the way individual post defenders are officiated?

Offline Sophomore

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.
Not buying that last sentence for a second. If anything I almost have to wonder if Kyrie could be better because he could play legit defense.

You'd just see different players, and the players who got into the league changing their bodies to compete. Just like Greg Monroe is a throwback in today's league, a skinny guy like Kyrie would lose
 some of his edge. Stronger, heavier, slower players would have an advantage.

Marcus might add 10 pounds and have a real shot at DPOY.

Offline KGs Knee

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

Fair enough.

If you liked post play though, would you take the 1990s over the 1980s? I feel like the game was much more balanced in the 1980s. The pace through the mid-80s was about 100 possessions/game. In the 90s it went down to about 90 a game. The game got really slow, and a lot of the time you had four players standing around doing nothing.

I think the ting that was best about the 80's was there wasn't really any one style of play that was inherently more likely to lead to success.

I think the league now is getting dangerously close to the point where there is only one way to play, and be successful. I don't view that as a good thing.

Offline mgent

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No, math introduced the "era of the 3 ball"

Yeah, pretty much this.

And it is true that Europeans brought what we know as modern math to N. America, so it looks like we can blame Europe.

They didn't "bring" math, it was already here lol.

And I don't think you need calculus or anything like that to figure out the 3 point shot.  I'm pretty sure every Native American knew 3 apples are better than 2.
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Offline furball

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

Fair enough.

If you liked post play though, would you take the 1990s over the 1980s? I feel like the game was much more balanced in the 1980s. The pace through the mid-80s was about 100 possessions/game. In the 90s it went down to about 90 a game. The game got really slow, and a lot of the time you had four players standing around doing nothing.

I think the ting that was best about the 80's was there wasn't really any one style of play that was inherently more likely to lead to success.

I think the league now is getting dangerously close to the point where there is only one way to play, and be successful. I don't view that as a good thing.

I agree completely.  There is only one way to play now if you want to win.  Back in the day (the 80s) there were many styles.  As they say "styles make fights".  It's so much better watching opposing styles go at it and watching to see who can control the game etc. 

Offline Granath

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

No different, but I don't agree with it.

The early/mid 90s basketball was atrocious. It was a wrestling match on the court and a free-throw fest at the line which resulted in a slow, ponderous game. I like defense and I like post play too, but I like skill even more. The NBA allowed Detroit to substitute size over skill when they started winning NBA Championships. Chicago and other teams followed suit.

On court the game devolved into outright thuggery, which is different than defense. Guys with skill just got pummeled on the court which resulted in The Malice at the Palace and other fights. It wasn't good that playoff series (Knicks/Heat, 1997) were decided upon suspensions and not the play on the court. There's a reason that the last great basketbrawl was led by an Isiah Thomas-coached team in which 'Melo was suspended 15 games. The NBA had had enough. Ratings were down and the fans were leaving.

Now is today's game perfect? I don't think so. I'd like to see the NBA 3 point line consistent at 23' 9" or even just 24'. I kind of miss a bit of the hand checking. But I don't miss the days of tossing it into the post and mugging the guy. I like to see mismatches like 6'7" Jaylen Brown posting up smaller SGs without fear of him being slammed to the floor by a 6'9", 250 pound enforcer. I like seeing the fluidity of the game again. I loved watching IT drive the lane without being chucked into the 4th row.

The problem with the game today - to me - is largely due to these super-teams. Going into the season it seems you can count on one hand the number of teams that are going to compete for the NBA Championship each season. NBA free agency is driven by the rich getting richer and forcing the poor to get poorer. Now Ainge has shown ways to make the poor get rich again so it's not totally hopeless. I would appreciate a bit more parity in the league but I'll be the first to admit I have no good ideas on how to accomplish that task.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Offline Who

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I liked it when it was hard to score (90s/00s). It is just too easy to score nowadays. Too many open shots. I liked it when guys had to battle to get a clean look at the basket. That hardship. That struggle. The effort and fight of it all.

Offline hpantazo

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.
Me too. Sick of how easy it is for guards to score.

Do you remember how it was in the 90s? Slow, musclebound guards wrestling much more skilled players into mediocrity. Teams dumping the ball into the post and standing around for 10 seconds while the big pounded his way into the block and took a shot. Horrible. In a hand check era Kyrie is an ordinary player because every Mark Jackson clone can just hold him.

I guess you missed my previous post in this thread where I said I enjoyed the 90's style of play better.

It was more about defense and post play, and I find that more enjoyable. It's just an opinion, no different than yours.

No different, but I don't agree with it.

The early/mid 90s basketball was atrocious. It was a wrestling match on the court and a free-throw fest at the line which resulted in a slow, ponderous game. I like defense and I like post play too, but I like skill even more. The NBA allowed Detroit to substitute size over skill when they started winning NBA Championships. Chicago and other teams followed suit.

On court the game devolved into outright thuggery, which is different than defense. Guys with skill just got pummeled on the court which resulted in The Malice at the Palace and other fights. It wasn't good that playoff series (Knicks/Heat, 1997) were decided upon suspensions and not the play on the court. There's a reason that the last great basketbrawl was led by an Isiah Thomas-coached team in which 'Melo was suspended 15 games. The NBA had had enough. Ratings were down and the fans were leaving.

Now is today's game perfect? I don't think so. I'd like to see the NBA 3 point line consistent at 23' 9" or even just 24'. I kind of miss a bit of the hand checking. But I don't miss the days of tossing it into the post and mugging the guy. I like to see mismatches like 6'7" Jaylen Brown posting up smaller SGs without fear of him being slammed to the floor by a 6'9", 250 pound enforcer. I like seeing the fluidity of the game again. I loved watching IT drive the lane without being chucked into the 4th row.

The problem with the game today - to me - is largely due to these super-teams. Going into the season it seems you can count on one hand the number of teams that are going to compete for the NBA Championship each season. NBA free agency is driven by the rich getting richer and forcing the poor to get poorer. Now Ainge has shown ways to make the poor get rich again so it's not totally hopeless. I would appreciate a bit more parity in the league but I'll be the first to admit I have no good ideas on how to accomplish that task.


This is a huge over exaggeration of the NBA in that era. It was not 'thuggery' and 'wrestling matches' or 'free throw fests'

Far from it. Guys were allowed to play defense, and big men were not penalized for scoring in the paint. Free throws per game were similar to todays averages because refs didnt blow the whistle for every love tap or phantom foul.