Author Topic: Is this the 2nd time Euros brought something good that ruined the game for years  (Read 4116 times)

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Offline HomerSapien

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.
Amen.  I hated the style of play and had pretty much stopped watching the NBA by the end of the 90's aside from the C's (and even them I was less die hard than I have been since the 2000's).

The Rick Adelman Sacramento Kings and their style of play was a breath of fresh air that sucked me back in to the rest of the league a bit, and then the Steve Nash/Mike D'Antoni Suns did so even more.  Finally, after that team the rest of the leagues style of play gradually started to improve and teams finally started to value ball movement and passing again.

The current league isn't perfect (I'd like to see the way the post/fouls in the post be called more consistently to offset the additional attention that 3-point shooting gets) but I think it is so much more watchable than the decades that the Bad Boys and Riley Knicks/Heat ruined.  I think the NBA is as good as ever.

Offline kraidstar

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.
Amen.  I hated the style of play and had pretty much stopped watching the NBA by the end of the 90's aside from the C's (and even them I was less die hard than I have been since the 2000's).

The Rick Adelman Sacramento Kings and their style of play was a breath of fresh air that sucked me back in to the rest of the league a bit, and then the Steve Nash/Mike D'Antoni Suns did so even more.  Finally, after that team the rest of the leagues style of play gradually started to improve and teams finally started to value ball movement and passing again.

The current league isn't perfect (I'd like to see the way the post/fouls in the post be called more consistently to offset the additional attention that 3-point shooting gets) but I think it is so much more watchable than the decades that the Bad Boys and Riley Knicks/Heat ruined.  I think the NBA is as good as ever.

Yup.

David Stern milked the Jordan/Kobe/Lakers cow for easy money and he hurt the quality of play terribly.

A few rules/officiating shifts later and we have a watchable product again. And what at least appears to be a more honest one as well, Stern was a snake.

What he did to the Kings - and to a lesser extent the Mavs, Suns, and Celtics - was criminal. Glad the league isn't punishing teams anymore for moving the ball.

Offline Celtics4ever

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I dislike the travel aka Euro Step, they need to ship that back with a tariff!

Offline fairweatherfan

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.
Amen.  I hated the style of play and had pretty much stopped watching the NBA by the end of the 90's aside from the C's (and even them I was less die hard than I have been since the 2000's).

The Rick Adelman Sacramento Kings and their style of play was a breath of fresh air that sucked me back in to the rest of the league a bit, and then the Steve Nash/Mike D'Antoni Suns did so even more.  Finally, after that team the rest of the leagues style of play gradually started to improve and teams finally started to value ball movement and passing again.

The current league isn't perfect (I'd like to see the way the post/fouls in the post be called more consistently to offset the additional attention that 3-point shooting gets) but I think it is so much more watchable than the decades that the Bad Boys and Riley Knicks/Heat ruined.  I think the NBA is as good as ever.

Yup.

David Stern milked the Jordan/Kobe/Lakers cow for easy money and he hurt the quality of play terribly.

A few rules/officiating shifts later and we have a watchable product again. And what at least appears to be a more honest one as well, Stern was a snake.

What he did to the Kings - and to a lesser extent the Mavs, Suns, and Celtics - was criminal. Glad the league isn't punishing teams anymore for moving the ball.

Agree on the Kings + Suns being the forerunners of the new more wide-open style.

But the ugly style wasn't just Stern or league officials - teams copied what worked and after years of watching Jordan win titles by isolating a lot down the stretch, they tried a lot of that too. Problem was nobody else was Jordan.

Defenses also became very good at exploiting the kinds of contact allowed under the written and unwritten rules of the league, especially the handcheck. Teams copied the Bad Boy Pistons there, and made the game steadily slower and uglier on both ends (look up some of the offense/defense stats of the Mike Fratello Cavs for maybe the most extreme example).  The rule changes were largely a reaction to the old rules getting taken advantage of to the detriment of the product.

Overall I wish the 3-line was a bit farther back because it's just too easy for NBA players for a shot worth 50% more points. You'd see more variety of play with that. But the game now is much more enjoyable than the game I grew up with.

Offline nickagneta

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Watching the Knicks-Heat games during that era was excruciating. What was the average score, 76-72? Being a fan during that basketball era was brutal.

Offline PhoSita

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The 1999 Spurs won the Finals with an EFG of 47.6%.  84.8 points per game.

They attempted 67.4 field goals per game in that series along with 28 free throws per game.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Offline PhoSita

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The simplest solution to the proliferation of threes would be eliminating corner threes by flattening the arc so it ends above the break.  You could also move the line back a few feet.  You'd still have flamethrowers like Curry launching non-stop but it would be much harder for the average NBA player to shoot 38-40%.

Other ideas would include getting rid of offensive goaltending rules to give long-armed big men some more relevance again, and also eliminating offensive and defensive three seconds rules.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline HomerSapien

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.
Amen.  I hated the style of play and had pretty much stopped watching the NBA by the end of the 90's aside from the C's (and even them I was less die hard than I have been since the 2000's).

The Rick Adelman Sacramento Kings and their style of play was a breath of fresh air that sucked me back in to the rest of the league a bit, and then the Steve Nash/Mike D'Antoni Suns did so even more.  Finally, after that team the rest of the leagues style of play gradually started to improve and teams finally started to value ball movement and passing again.

The current league isn't perfect (I'd like to see the way the post/fouls in the post be called more consistently to offset the additional attention that 3-point shooting gets) but I think it is so much more watchable than the decades that the Bad Boys and Riley Knicks/Heat ruined.  I think the NBA is as good as ever.

Yup.

David Stern milked the Jordan/Kobe/Lakers cow for easy money and he hurt the quality of play terribly.

A few rules/officiating shifts later and we have a watchable product again. And what at least appears to be a more honest one as well, Stern was a snake.

What he did to the Kings - and to a lesser extent the Mavs, Suns, and Celtics - was criminal. Glad the league isn't punishing teams anymore for moving the ball.

Agree on the Kings + Suns being the forerunners of the new more wide-open style.

But the ugly style wasn't just Stern or league officials - teams copied what worked and after years of watching Jordan win titles by isolating a lot down the stretch, they tried a lot of that too. Problem was nobody else was Jordan.

Defenses also became very good at exploiting the kinds of contact allowed under the written and unwritten rules of the league, especially the handcheck. Teams copied the Bad Boy Pistons there, and made the game steadily slower and uglier on both ends (look up some of the offense/defense stats of the Mike Fratello Cavs for maybe the most extreme example).  The rule changes were largely a reaction to the old rules getting taken advantage of to the detriment of the product.

Overall I wish the 3-line was a bit farther back because it's just too easy for NBA players for a shot worth 50% more points. You'd see more variety of play with that. But the game now is much more enjoyable than the game I grew up with.
I used to joke with people that I thought Michael Jordan's legacy set the league back a decade, and while it was somewhat facetious I do think that having every kid in America aspiring to be the "next" Jordan aka a great 1 x 1 scorer, and teams / coaches looking to implement that model did hurt the product for a while.  Fortunately now we have some great 1x1 players as well as team ball so it is a pretty good mix.

The one skill that I hope the league finds a way to bring back in more abundance is interior passing.  I always have felt like watching well executed guard-to-big and big-to-big passes inside for a layup/dunk is one of the more aesthetically pleasing plays in basketball and I'd like to see more of that on top of the kick out passes for 3 that we see tons of now.

Offline konkmv

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Probably you do not understand the importance of spacing and the lack of bigs like Shaq Ewing and Robinson...  the difference  with the past is that more and more 2 way players come out... better technically and in basics of basketball... Ewing and Robinson and Shaq would have a great role and now... the problem is for the old traditional pf like Rodman who were typical one way players... if and when a new Shaq or Kareem comes out the game will be forced to change again... after some time great teams will understand spacing more and will develop more and more attacking systems besides the easy three point attack... if you got a guy like Durant who can defend rebound penetrate shot being 7 foot why use a guy like Rodman at the pf position?? The teams are just adjusting to the new trend and the issue is more at the defensive part... the U.S. basketball was always more about fun and attacking ability  but even there teams with great defence won championships Celtics of bird bulls spurs..  the coaches for me have not found yet an effective way to defend the 3 point game.. Probably the Americans kids are not adjusted yet and some euro kids who grow up playing through systems adjust more easily with the disadvantage of physical strength... anyway at some point a bad boys team will rise again out of nowhere will be able to defend  this trend and they will try to find a little different approach.... Jordan would destroy any of these teams even now... LeBron would too if he was not megalomaniac and acted as an gm and would let an experienced gm do his work... and the three point game was and is not their best attribute

Offline KGs Knee

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.

I mean, this is just an opinion, nothing more.

I personally enjoyed 90's era basketball much more than today's style of play.  Defense mattered.  Big men had actual low post skills.  Guards actually had to be able to break their defenders down with the dribble, instead of hiding behind incessant pick and rolls.  Pint sized midgets didn't have free reign to wreak terror from the perimeter, they'd get muscled off the court by bigger, stronger players.

I'd love a return to 90's era basketball.  But I accept that I'm probably in the minority, and that the younger generations of NBA fans prefer a free-wheeling style of play.  It is what it is.

Offline kraidstar

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Anyone who thinks the game's been ruined should go back and watch some typical games from 94-03 or so. Not highlights, the full games, every last grueling, tedious, bricky possession. 

I learned the other day that Houston, who draws fouls at the highest rate in the NBA this year, would've been 21st by the same measure 20 years ago.  And that's on top of the far slower pace back then.
Amen.  I hated the style of play and had pretty much stopped watching the NBA by the end of the 90's aside from the C's (and even them I was less die hard than I have been since the 2000's).

The Rick Adelman Sacramento Kings and their style of play was a breath of fresh air that sucked me back in to the rest of the league a bit, and then the Steve Nash/Mike D'Antoni Suns did so even more.  Finally, after that team the rest of the leagues style of play gradually started to improve and teams finally started to value ball movement and passing again.

The current league isn't perfect (I'd like to see the way the post/fouls in the post be called more consistently to offset the additional attention that 3-point shooting gets) but I think it is so much more watchable than the decades that the Bad Boys and Riley Knicks/Heat ruined.  I think the NBA is as good as ever.

Yup.

David Stern milked the Jordan/Kobe/Lakers cow for easy money and he hurt the quality of play terribly.

A few rules/officiating shifts later and we have a watchable product again. And what at least appears to be a more honest one as well, Stern was a snake.

What he did to the Kings - and to a lesser extent the Mavs, Suns, and Celtics - was criminal. Glad the league isn't punishing teams anymore for moving the ball.

Agree on the Kings + Suns being the forerunners of the new more wide-open style.

But the ugly style wasn't just Stern or league officials - teams copied what worked and after years of watching Jordan win titles by isolating a lot down the stretch, they tried a lot of that too. Problem was nobody else was Jordan.

Defenses also became very good at exploiting the kinds of contact allowed under the written and unwritten rules of the league, especially the handcheck. Teams copied the Bad Boy Pistons there, and made the game steadily slower and uglier on both ends (look up some of the offense/defense stats of the Mike Fratello Cavs for maybe the most extreme example).  The rule changes were largely a reaction to the old rules getting taken advantage of to the detriment of the product.

Overall I wish the 3-line was a bit farther back because it's just too easy for NBA players for a shot worth 50% more points. You'd see more variety of play with that. But the game now is much more enjoyable than the game I grew up with.

Half the reason that style worked though is because Stern allowed favored teams to use it to a ridiculous extent. The Pistons should have all been thrown out of the league. They were favored for some reason and were allowed to cheat. Nobody else was nearly as bad as they were back then.

The Bulls and Lakers followed suit.

On an even playing field I think we would have seen more styles of play emerge, and a better product on the court overall.

Offline konkmv

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I  do agree that the pistons were allowed to play this way... but you must agree that teams have been thinking more about defence after the pistons era...

Offline KGs Knee

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I just want hand checking back.  It's too easy for the guards these days.

Online byennie

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IMO outside shooting/ high scoring is good for the league overall, but:

1) Extend the distance and drop the corner 3. No more guys camping in the corner not only takes away the easiest shot, but negates some of this extreme spread offense where 4 guys are hanging out behind the line.

2) Adopt the euro shot clock (14 seconds after an offensive rebound) and goaltending rules (none of this "in the cylinder" crap). Less time to reset and shoot another 3 pointer, and a slight edge for big guys who can go get stuff off the rim.

3) 3-second rule = 5-second rule? Give big guys more time to carve out position and get high percentage shots.

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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IMO outside shooting/ high scoring is good for the league overall, but:

1) Extend the distance and drop the corner 3. No more guys camping in the corner not only takes away the easiest shot, but negates some of this extreme spread offense where 4 guys are hanging out behind the line.

2) Adopt the euro shot clock (14 seconds after an offensive rebound) and goaltending rules (none of this "in the cylinder" crap). Less time to reset and shoot another 3 pointer, and a slight edge for big guys who can go get stuff off the rim.

3) 3-second rule = 5-second rule? Give big guys more time to carve out position and get high percentage shots.

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