Author Topic: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)  (Read 6043 times)

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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 04:45:27 PM »

Offline 2short

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myles turner is only 22??

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2018, 04:57:47 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think Otto Porter is overrated at #15. He's an excellent 3-and-D wing but is there something else I'm missing? I don't see him as ever being anything other than a good ole player (which he is now). I think I'd rather have everyone ranked on this list before him except Markkenan and Saric.
He has been a pretty darn good 3 point shooter the last two years, borderline elite.  Excellent defender.  Solid passer and rebounder.  I mean he is 7 missed free throws away from being a 50/40/90 player.  That said, he isn't a carry a team guy, but he is a very good player at 24.  Maybe he doesn't have the top end potential of someone like Brown, but there are no guarantees Brown will ever be as good as Porter is right now.

I'm not convinced Porter is the better player right now. They're comparable defenders, neither is a particularly good passer. Porter is a more efficient shooter but does less with the ball in his hands. I don't watch Washington a ton but I've never seen him be a threat off the bounce. Brown is.
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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2018, 05:09:22 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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myles turner is only 22??

Big guys who get hurt are perceived as riskier. Plus, he had sort of plateaued this year anyway. The hopes that he'd be an All-NBA (or even All-Star) player seem to have waned.

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2018, 05:13:32 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I think Otto Porter is overrated at #15. He's an excellent 3-and-D wing but is there something else I'm missing? I don't see him as ever being anything other than a good ole player (which he is now). I think I'd rather have everyone ranked on this list before him except Markkenan and Saric.
He has been a pretty darn good 3 point shooter the last two years, borderline elite.  Excellent defender.  Solid passer and rebounder.  I mean he is 7 missed free throws away from being a 50/40/90 player.  That said, he isn't a carry a team guy, but he is a very good player at 24.  Maybe he doesn't have the top end potential of someone like Brown, but there are no guarantees Brown will ever be as good as Porter is right now.

That's true but if there's a systematic weakness in this list, I think it weights current performance a bit strongly given that it's supposed to be about "potential."

As an example I find it hard to believe that even though Porter's further along, the Wiz could trade him for Markannen, or Ball, or Ingram - all guys lower on that list. Which, if true, means their potential outweighs his (probably close to peak) level of play.

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2018, 05:22:11 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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The fact that Ingram is #16 on this list should INVALIDATE this entire charade!!

Ingram has a stinking 13.9 PER.  He is ranked 61st in RPM for SF's out of 90.  He is ranked 34th in WINS.  He is ranked 58th in defensive RPM.

Is it just because he plays for the Lakers or what??

Just for comparison, Jaylen is ranked 12th in RPM for SG's out of 107.  He is ranked 10th in WINS and he is ranked 6th in defensive RPM.

YET, Jaylen is rated 22nd and Ingram is 16th.

Ridiculous!!

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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2018, 05:25:40 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I think Otto Porter is overrated at #15. He's an excellent 3-and-D wing but is there something else I'm missing? I don't see him as ever being anything other than a good ole player (which he is now). I think I'd rather have everyone ranked on this list before him except Markkenan and Saric.

If anything, he is horrendously UNDER-rated!!

Otto is first in RPM for SF's.  He is 2nd in WINS and he is 5th in defensive RPM for SF's.

He is legit and terribly underappreciated and under-used due to playing with high volume shooters in Wall and Beal!!

Smitty77

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2018, 07:58:26 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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Too bad Kyrie is 25 and a year too old to qualify... But fantastic to have two Celtics on the list!

Semi will make it next year 💪 ;D

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2018, 08:00:43 PM »

Offline moiso

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I’d rather have everyone on that list than Porter, with the possible exception of Saric.

Ingram as been playing very well lately.  His season long stats are irrelevant.

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2018, 08:02:19 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think some of the experts are a little stuck on the "stat hanging" some players can do on teams that are lotto teams that lack other talents.  Both Tatum and Brown likely would be higher if they were on a team that used them more offensively.
Tatum and Brown can't handle more offensively at this point.  Brown, after all, has the 2nd most shots per game on the Celtics by almost a full shot more than Morris.  Tatum has plenty of chances to shoot more and doesn't.  They just aren't those type of players.


Of course they could if they could be volume shooters like some of the other players mentioned.

Tatum is at 9.9 shots a game.   Brown at 11.4
who are these volume shooters you speak of on that list ahead of Brown and Tatum?
There are definitely players on that list that shoot 2-7 more shots per game than Tatum and Brown who's TS% is about equal to less than Tatum and Brown. If Tatum was on a poor team shooting the amount of shots Mitchell and Booker are, he would definitely be much higher on the list.
Utah is well above .500, they aren't a poor team at all. 

Booker is obviously on a bad team, but he has a TS% of 56.6 which is better than Brown and worse than Tatum (though Tatum has been dropping consistently the second half of the year).  He isn't just putting up stats because he is shooting a lot, he is putting up stats because he is an incredible scorer and quite efficient.  He isn't some inefficient chucker who is only scoring because he is on a crap team and someone has to shoot. 

The thing is, there are plenty of shots available for both Brown and Tatum and they just don't take them.  It isn't a question of them needing more looks, it is a question of them not being able to handle more shots because they aren't that type of player right now.  They might develop into a #1 scoring option, but they might not (for the record I think Tatum will develop into an excellent scorer, but I don't think that is Brown's game at all).
Your whole assumption here is Tatum and Brown don't take more shots because they aren't ready. The truth is probably closer to they have been taught to play within the system and look for the type of shots Coach Stevens wants.

If they were given the type of freedom that others on this list have, taken the amount of shots others on the list have and made them at their current rates, my guess is they are both much higher rated.

Your assumption that they aren't ready or wouldn't hit shots at the same efficiency is just a negative guess, the same way I think if Brown and Tatum were put on another team and given #1 scoring opportunities they would score a whole bunch more is a positive guess.

But, if put into that stuation one thing is for sure, they would put up more stats and score more. The only question is the efficiency. Either way, more stats, in my opinion would mean higher rankings because these voters are basically going by stats and little else.

Also, I think it disengenuous to call Booker a great scorer and highly efficient when he takes 5-7 mores shots per game and he has a worse TS% than Tatum and his TS% is just 1% higher than Brown's. Give Brown and Tatum the same offensive opportunity where they are allowed to play absolutely zero defense and I can see them being great scorers too.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 08:21:18 PM by nickagneta »

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2018, 08:07:32 PM »

Online RJ87

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I see nothing wrong with those rankings.  I'd have a few people moved around, but generally those seem about right.

Soooo,

You rank the following players as having a better future than Jaylen Brown:

Andrew Drummond
Clint Cappela
Otto Porter
Lonzo Ball
Lauri Markennen
Jamal Murray
Aaron Gordon

I find that hard to believe.  Especially for someone who follows the Brown's games closely, and monitored his growth. I am an admitted homer, and may have him ranked too high, but still find his placement on this list way too low.

The only one that is questionable is Jamal Murray and maybe Lonzo depending on how you feel about his shot improving. Given the choice, I'd take every other player on that list before Jaylen.

I don't believe that Otto Porter, Jamal Murray, and Aaron Gordon have brighter futures than Jaylen Brown.

we're in agreement there.
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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 10:46:53 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think some of the experts are a little stuck on the "stat hanging" some players can do on teams that are lotto teams that lack other talents.  Both Tatum and Brown likely would be higher if they were on a team that used them more offensively.
Tatum and Brown can't handle more offensively at this point.  Brown, after all, has the 2nd most shots per game on the Celtics by almost a full shot more than Morris.  Tatum has plenty of chances to shoot more and doesn't.  They just aren't those type of players.


Of course they could if they could be volume shooters like some of the other players mentioned.

Tatum is at 9.9 shots a game.   Brown at 11.4
who are these volume shooters you speak of on that list ahead of Brown and Tatum?
There are definitely players on that list that shoot 2-7 more shots per game than Tatum and Brown who's TS% is about equal to less than Tatum and Brown. If Tatum was on a poor team shooting the amount of shots Mitchell and Booker are, he would definitely be much higher on the list.
Utah is well above .500, they aren't a poor team at all. 

Booker is obviously on a bad team, but he has a TS% of 56.6 which is better than Brown and worse than Tatum (though Tatum has been dropping consistently the second half of the year).  He isn't just putting up stats because he is shooting a lot, he is putting up stats because he is an incredible scorer and quite efficient.  He isn't some inefficient chucker who is only scoring because he is on a crap team and someone has to shoot. 

The thing is, there are plenty of shots available for both Brown and Tatum and they just don't take them.  It isn't a question of them needing more looks, it is a question of them not being able to handle more shots because they aren't that type of player right now.  They might develop into a #1 scoring option, but they might not (for the record I think Tatum will develop into an excellent scorer, but I don't think that is Brown's game at all).
Your whole assumption here is Tatum and Brown don't take more shots because they aren't ready. The truth is probably closer to they have been taught to play within the system and look for the type of shots Coach Stevens wants.

If they were given the type of freedom that others on this list have, taken the amount of shots others on the list have and made them at their current rates, my guess is they are both much higher rated.

Your assumption that they aren't ready or wouldn't hit shots at the same efficiency is just a negative guess, the same way I think if Brown and Tatum were put on another team and given #1 scoring opportunities they would score a whole bunch more is a positive guess.

But, if put into that stuation one thing is for sure, they would put up more stats and score more. The only question is the efficiency. Either way, more stats, in my opinion would mean higher rankings because these voters are basically going by stats and little else.

Also, I think it disengenuous to call Booker a great scorer and highly efficient when he takes 5-7 mores shots per game and he has a worse TS% than Tatum and his TS% is just 1% higher than Brown's. Give Brown and Tatum the same offensive opportunity where they are allowed to play absolutely zero defense and I can see them being great scorers too.
or as is often the case increased shots as a #1 option yields a worse percentage not more efficiency. Or like Bradley, Crowder, Olynyk, etc. When guys leave Boston they lose all their efficiency even if they shoot less.  Booker was an incredible shooter in college, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he is an incredible shooter in the pros.  Tatum was also a very good college shooter so he might turn it on, but right now he absolutely is not ready or he would be shooting more as the shots are there for him to take.  It isn't because he is in Boston he isn't shooting, it is because he isn't ready and there is no guarantee he will be.
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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 11:42:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think some of the experts are a little stuck on the "stat hanging" some players can do on teams that are lotto teams that lack other talents.  Both Tatum and Brown likely would be higher if they were on a team that used them more offensively.
Tatum and Brown can't handle more offensively at this point.  Brown, after all, has the 2nd most shots per game on the Celtics by almost a full shot more than Morris.  Tatum has plenty of chances to shoot more and doesn't.  They just aren't those type of players.


Of course they could if they could be volume shooters like some of the other players mentioned.

Tatum is at 9.9 shots a game.   Brown at 11.4
who are these volume shooters you speak of on that list ahead of Brown and Tatum?
There are definitely players on that list that shoot 2-7 more shots per game than Tatum and Brown who's TS% is about equal to less than Tatum and Brown. If Tatum was on a poor team shooting the amount of shots Mitchell and Booker are, he would definitely be much higher on the list.
Utah is well above .500, they aren't a poor team at all. 

Booker is obviously on a bad team, but he has a TS% of 56.6 which is better than Brown and worse than Tatum (though Tatum has been dropping consistently the second half of the year).  He isn't just putting up stats because he is shooting a lot, he is putting up stats because he is an incredible scorer and quite efficient.  He isn't some inefficient chucker who is only scoring because he is on a crap team and someone has to shoot. 

The thing is, there are plenty of shots available for both Brown and Tatum and they just don't take them.  It isn't a question of them needing more looks, it is a question of them not being able to handle more shots because they aren't that type of player right now.  They might develop into a #1 scoring option, but they might not (for the record I think Tatum will develop into an excellent scorer, but I don't think that is Brown's game at all).
Your whole assumption here is Tatum and Brown don't take more shots because they aren't ready. The truth is probably closer to they have been taught to play within the system and look for the type of shots Coach Stevens wants.

If they were given the type of freedom that others on this list have, taken the amount of shots others on the list have and made them at their current rates, my guess is they are both much higher rated.

Your assumption that they aren't ready or wouldn't hit shots at the same efficiency is just a negative guess, the same way I think if Brown and Tatum were put on another team and given #1 scoring opportunities they would score a whole bunch more is a positive guess.

But, if put into that stuation one thing is for sure, they would put up more stats and score more. The only question is the efficiency. Either way, more stats, in my opinion would mean higher rankings because these voters are basically going by stats and little else.

Also, I think it disengenuous to call Booker a great scorer and highly efficient when he takes 5-7 mores shots per game and he has a worse TS% than Tatum and his TS% is just 1% higher than Brown's. Give Brown and Tatum the same offensive opportunity where they are allowed to play absolutely zero defense and I can see them being great scorers too.
or as is often the case increased shots as a #1 option yields a worse percentage not more efficiency. Or like Bradley, Crowder, Olynyk, etc. When guys leave Boston they lose all their efficiency even if they shoot less.  Booker was an incredible shooter in college, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he is an incredible shooter in the pros.  Tatum was also a very good college shooter so he might turn it on, but right now he absolutely is not ready or he would be shooting more as the shots are there for him to take.  It isn't because he is in Boston he isn't shooting, it is because he isn't ready and there is no guarantee he will be.
Yeah...I just think you're completely wrongt and there's very little data to support your point so we will have to agree to disagree since I don't want to bring up points to someone who will just ignore them. You look at things negatively for Brown and Tatum vetsus others, I look at things positively. My guess, Brown and Tatum will win a title long before most on that list and it will be because they grew up in the right environment. An environment where as along as you ate winning, its okay not to be the leading scorer on your team.

Let's see how people evaluate them after that happens.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:01:45 AM by nickagneta »

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 11:43:37 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Ignore ESPN, they're Laker stans anyways.
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Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 11:58:04 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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Clearly Brown and Tatum should be 1/2, with Rozier and Smart in the top 10 and Bird, Allen and ojeleye somewhere in the 20-25 range.

Re: ESPN's 25 Under 25: Tatum ranked 14, Brown ranked 22 (no kidding)
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2018, 12:09:08 AM »

Offline TheisTheisBaby

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Ignore ESPN, they're Laker stans anyways.

Is there a "NO....GET OUTTA TOWN" font?   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: