Author Topic: Kyrie...play a little defense please  (Read 2837 times)

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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2018, 01:47:52 AM »

Online Roy H.

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This game aside, his defense isnít very good. Heís allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  Heís the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, heís allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

Itís not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And itís not just FG% differential. Heís last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.


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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2018, 04:42:31 AM »

Online The Oracle

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll. 

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2018, 07:52:41 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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This game aside, his defense isnít very good. Heís allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  Heís the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, heís allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

Itís not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And itís not just FG% differential. Heís last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.

I had no punchline. I had no main point. I was supplying more context to the stats. The forceful response back after I supplied more context is kinda' silly. I wasn't trying to say he is a good defender.

Just putting percentage differentials out there without any real context is unhelpful.

Other guys who are well-known as defensive players were on those lists also - Bradley, Paul, Brogdon, KCP, and Rubio. Stephen Curry was even on that list.

Knowing who else is on those lists and other important lists gives you a backdrop to understand Kyrie's defense. If you don't think that the backdrop I provided colors him in a negative enough light, don't get upset. Let's have a discussion on it.

Defensive stats are mostly wanting. They do an inefficient job at portraying good defense. Sometimes they get it right, but sometimes they get it wrong.

For instance, the fact that the team gives up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions when Kyrie is on the court might tell us that he is not a good team defender, but it also might tell us that the league as a whole doesn't have deep teams (because those teams struggle to score against our bench unit). It also could mean both at the same time. This is an example of how a defensive stat is inefficient at showing us good defenders.

Did you know that Curry's defensive rating and dbpm was worse than Irving? Did you know that Bradley's defensive rating is worse and dbpm is almost identical?

Again, not necessarily saying that Irving is a better defender than Bradley or Curry -- he might or might not be, but that's not the point. The point is that every defensive stat that is out there is fundamentally flawed in some way and needs context.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 07:59:40 AM by DefenseWinsChamps »

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2018, 08:00:58 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Thank-you, Oracle. Nice stats. TP

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2018, 09:01:17 AM »

Online Roy H.

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This game aside, his defense isnít very good. Heís allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  Heís the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, heís allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

Itís not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And itís not just FG% differential. Heís last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.

I had no punchline. I had no main point. I was supplying more context to the stats. The forceful response back after I supplied more context is kinda' silly. I wasn't trying to say he is a good defender.

Just putting percentage differentials out there without any real context is unhelpful.

Other guys who are well-known as defensive players were on those lists also - Bradley, Paul, Brogdon, KCP, and Rubio. Stephen Curry was even on that list.

Knowing who else is on those lists and other important lists gives you a backdrop to understand Kyrie's defense. If you don't think that the backdrop I provided colors him in a negative enough light, don't get upset. Let's have a discussion on it.

Defensive stats are mostly wanting. They do an inefficient job at portraying good defense. Sometimes they get it right, but sometimes they get it wrong.

For instance, the fact that the team gives up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions when Kyrie is on the court might tell us that he is not a good team defender, but it also might tell us that the league as a whole doesn't have deep teams (because those teams struggle to score against our bench unit). It also could mean both at the same time. This is an example of how a defensive stat is inefficient at showing us good defenders.

Did you know that Curry's defensive rating and dbpm was worse than Irving? Did you know that Bradley's defensive rating is worse and dbpm is almost identical?

Again, not necessarily saying that Irving is a better defender than Bradley or Curry -- he might or might not be, but that's not the point. The point is that every defensive stat that is out there is fundamentally flawed in some way and needs context.

Thatís a ďforcefulĒ response? Showing more stats to back up the original point?

Nobody said Kyrie was the worst defender in the league. Heís just (far and away) the worst defensive Celtics regular. Heís in around the bottom 20% league wide. Is there context provided by pointing out that Steph Curry is arguably worse? Maybe, but Iíd assume that most fans already knew that Steph is a lousy defender.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 09:27:43 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2018, 09:17:46 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.
I assume the OP just looked at the box score and didnít actually watch the game based on those stats.
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2018, 09:51:20 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Kyrieís defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesnít matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!

I think Kyrie showed that he can defend well early in the season, and has put it back in the bag to save for the post season.  At least that is what I am telling myself.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2018, 11:38:08 AM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2018, 05:39:21 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.

Exactly! Look for the "stat" and "+/-" guys just watch the games. Who cares about a +/- when the game has been simple for decades upon decades. It's a make and miss league where you must rebound, assist and defend...period. Now, Kyrie is a good offensive player but his defense on PnR is atrocious. He's always trailing and doesn't try to stay with his man. That in turn allows guards to go downhill with options and get other people out of position, which in turn makes players reach, not rotate and be out of position for rebounds. He doesn't have to be Dumars but he can be better. As Barkley says, "all these analytical guys try to make the game about numbers so they feel smarter than everyone else. Watch the games and if you know the game, your eyes will tell you what you see".

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2018, 05:49:15 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Kyrieís defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesnít matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!

I think Kyrie showed that he can defend well early in the season, and has put it back in the bag to save for the post season.  At least that is what I am telling myself.

The difference between Kyrie and IT has always been that Kyrie can play defense while IT - even with a high level of effort - just isn't ever able to compensate for his height.

It's a little bit annoying that Kyrie doesn't exert as much effort on the defensive side of the ball as we know he could (he is no Marcus Smart, but he can be adequate), but I guess that is what you get from a guy whose team has gone to the Finals the last 3 years. Hopefully he will deliver when it matters most.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2018, 05:52:40 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.

Exactly! Look for the "stat" and "+/-" guys just watch the games. Who cares about a +/- when the game has been simple for decades upon decades. It's a make and miss league where you must rebound, assist and defend...period. Now, Kyrie is a good offensive player but his defense on PnR is atrocious. He's always trailing and doesn't try to stay with his man. That in turn allows guards to go downhill with options and get other people out of position, which in turn makes players reach, not rotate and be out of position for rebounds. He doesn't have to be Dumars but he can be better. As Barkley says, "all these analytical guys try to make the game about numbers so they feel smarter than everyone else. Watch the games and if you know the game, your eyes will tell you what you see".
Lol his post was not at all what you made it out to be. You turned it into an anti-stat rant for no reason. And not even against advanced stats, simply regular stats.
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2018, 05:58:26 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"? ...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 06:08:35 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2018, 06:09:29 PM »

Online The Oracle

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
If you go to NBA.com and click on any player there is a compare player button towards the upper right.  You then can enter any opponent or teammate and adjust the parameters.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2018, 06:16:43 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
If you go to NBA.com and click on any player there is a compare player button towards the upper right.  You then can enter any opponent or teammate and adjust the parameters.

Thanks, TP
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2018, 06:28:12 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Kyrie Irving is bad at defense, he's been bad at defense his entire career. You put up with it because he's one of the ten best offensive players in the league.