Author Topic: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)  (Read 2458 times)

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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 04:22:43 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Do championship teams make superstars, or do superstars make championship teams?

That's a deep thought.

I'd say championship teams elevate stars (better overall surroundings), while superstars elevate championship teams.

I like this idea, but the line between stars and superstars is often pretty blurry. For instance, I personally think Ginobli elevated the Spurs more than they elevated him. Does that mean Manu Ginobli is a superstar? I probably wouldn't put him in that category, but he is near the top of my list of players who I'd want to have on my team in a championship game.

This is where I think we have to stop viewing players a static commodity with static abilities (ala NBA 2k ratings). Revisionist history almost always changes the narrative about players after a championship, but they were the same players before or after.

Yeah truthfully it's a complicated but interesting thought process.

Either way, I'm glad we had Isaiah last year and Kyrie now + going forward (hopefully)  ;D
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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 07:54:59 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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Rockets haven't won anything yet. "Superstar" thing can be taken out of context. You have perennial losers like Chris Paul, Blake Griffin and James Harden who haven't even reached the Finals.

There's no guarantee you will win with superstars either. Talent, chemistry and luck comes all together to build a championship team. We have seen a collection of talents that didn't mesh well because of poor chemistry.

You're right, but the odds are pretty low that you win without a superstar.

Not impossible but especially nowadays it's pretty low.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2018, 08:08:03 PM »

Offline TheLegendaryClub

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Counterpoint: you become a star through winning. Steph Curry was not a superstar until GS won the championship (the season prior was his first All Star appearance and GS was only sixth in the west). Kawhi wasn't even an All Star the year he won finals MVP.

And as mr. dee pointed out previously in this thread, there are plenty of perennial All Stars who haven't played in a finals series.

I think it's as simple as having talented players who are capable of being great when it counts, and a great coach to get them there. We have Kyrie (and next year, Hayward) for the former, and we have Brad Stevens for the latter. The rest is execution and a complementary roster.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:14:59 PM by TheLegendaryClub »

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2018, 10:19:32 PM »

Offline chambers

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Kyrie Irving is the starting pg for the 'East'/Lebron's team in the NBA All Star game.
That's pretty much 'superstar' level at age 26 in my opinion.
Our superstar hasn't yet reached his prime, and is playing without much help on the offensive end other than Al Horford.
In the 2017 playoffs he averaged 26 points, 5 assists, 1 steal, 3 rebounds and in the 2017 finals he averaged 29.4 points, 4 assists, 4.4 rebounds and 1 steal.

To me, those stats cement his place as a superstar in the NBA at 26 years old.

 
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 12:55:28 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I like how OP mentions Rockets have Harden but canít credit Irving.

Harden is a LOSER. Nothing about his past says otherwise and come May, we will be saying the same thing.

Irving is a champion. He was an integral part of three Finals teams and hit the shot to win game 7. Thereís a good chance Cleveland wins in 2015 if he plays.

I donít see how Irving isnít a superstar. Thatís like saying Durant isnít.
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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 01:01:48 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Eyeroll emoji.
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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2018, 01:23:44 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I like how OP mentions Rockets have Harden but canít credit Irving.

Harden is a LOSER. Nothing about his past says otherwise and come May, we will be saying the same thing.

Irving is a champion. He was an integral part of three Finals teams and hit the shot to win game 7. Thereís a good chance Cleveland wins in 2015 if he plays.

I donít see how Irving isnít a superstar. Thatís like saying Durant isnít.
Harden has finished 2nd in MVP votes twice. Irving has never recieved a single MVP vote (I think). Irving has made the All-NBA 3rd team 1 time, Harden's made the first team 3 times and the third team once.

Harden is superior to Irving by every statistical measure I can think of as well.
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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2018, 08:54:26 AM »

Offline kmart12

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I like how OP mentions Rockets have Harden but canít credit Irving.

Harden is a LOSER. Nothing about his past says otherwise and come May, we will be saying the same thing.

Irving is a champion. He was an integral part of three Finals teams and hit the shot to win game 7. Thereís a good chance Cleveland wins in 2015 if he plays.

I donít see how Irving isnít a superstar. Thatís like saying Durant isnít.
Harden has finished 2nd in MVP votes twice. Irving has never recieved a single MVP vote (I think). Irving has made the All-NBA 3rd team 1 time, Harden's made the first team 3 times and the third team once.

Harden is superior to Irving by every statistical measure I can think of as well.

Right. I am not positive that Kyrie is better than Harden at anything, including defense, which is saying something.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2018, 10:04:51 AM »

Offline Diggles

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Do All Star Votes correlate to Super Star Status? 

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2018, 10:17:01 AM »

Offline Redz

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A couple of sidebar thoughts on Kyrie vs Harden

Kyrie's Game 7 shot was obviously huge, but I all I remember about the end of that game was that that was the only shot hit by either team for the Final 4:39.  Total choke job by both sides.

    
Quote
04:39
[GSW 89-89]   K Thompson Driving Layup Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Green (9 AST)
James Jump Shot: Missed    04:14   
    04:13   Green Rebound (Off:1 Def:11)
    04:06   Curry 3pt Shot: Missed
Jefferson Rebound (Off:1 Def:8)    04:04   
James Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed    03:41   
    03:40   Team Rebound
    03:40   Ezeli Substitution replaced by Barnes
Jefferson Substitution replaced by Love    03:40   
    03:22   K Thompson Turnaround Fadeaway shot: Missed
Love Rebound (Off:4 Def:9)    03:21   
James Layup Shot: Missed Block: Iguodala (1 BLK)    03:00   
    02:59   Green Rebound (Off:1 Def:12)
    02:50   Iguodala 3pt Shot: Missed
James Rebound (Off:1 Def:9)    02:50   
    02:50   Curry Foul: Personal (4 PF) (D Crawford)
    02:50   
Love Hook Shot: Missed    02:32   
    02:32   Green Rebound (Off:1 Def:13)
    02:13   Green 3pt Shot: Missed
Team Rebound    02:12   
Irving Jump Shot: Missed    01:55   
    01:55   Iguodala Rebound (Off:2 Def:7)
    01:50   Iguodala Layup Shot: Missed Block: James (3 BLK)
Smith Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)    01:49   
James Jump Shot: Missed    01:25   
    01:24   Green Rebound (Off:1 Def:14)
    01:14   Curry 3pt Shot: Missed
Love Rebound (Off:4 Def:10)    01:13   
Team Timeout : Regular    01:09   
Thompson Substitution replaced by Jefferson    01:09   
Irving 3pt Shot: Made (26 PTS)    00:53.0
[CLE 92-89]   
    00:30.7   Curry 3pt Shot: Missed
James Rebound (Off:1 Def:10)    00:29.7   
Irving Layup Shot: Missed Block: Iguodala (2 BLK)    00:22.9   
Irving Rebound (Off:3 Def:3)    00:21.9   
    00:18.7   Barnes Foul: Personal (4 PF) (M Callahan)
    00:10.6   Green Foul: Shooting (3 PF) (2 FTA) (D Crawford)
Team Timeout : Short    00:10.6   
James Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed    00:10.6   
Team Rebound    00:10.6   
Love Substitution replaced by Thompson    00:10.6   
James Free Throw 2 of 2 (27 PTS)    00:10.6
[CLE 93-89]   
    00:10.6   Team Timeout : Short
    00:10.6   Barnes Substitution replaced by Speights
Jefferson Substitution replaced by Shumpert    00:10.6   
Thompson Foul: Personal (4 PF) (D Crawford)    00:06.5   
    00:01.8   Curry 3pt Shot: Missed
    00:01.7   Speights Rebound (Off:2 Def:2)
    00:00.5   Speights 3pt Shot: Missed
    00:00.0   Team Rebound
END OF 4TH QUARTER

As for Harden he needs to get past the occasional "quitter" mode - most glaringly vs Spurs in Game 7 last year.  Really pathetic.  We've seen it against the Celtics a couple of times too (got McHale fired a couple of years back and earlier this season taking ridiculous offensive foul bait from Smart...) The guy is hugely talented, but needs to figure out the "winner" thing.

Kyrie has been there and been successful.  Time for Harden to step up.

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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2018, 11:22:02 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I like how OP mentions Rockets have Harden but canít credit Irving.

Harden is a LOSER. Nothing about his past says otherwise and come May, we will be saying the same thing.

Irving is a champion. He was an integral part of three Finals teams and hit the shot to win game 7. Thereís a good chance Cleveland wins in 2015 if he plays.

I donít see how Irving isnít a superstar. Thatís like saying Durant isnít.
Harden has finished 2nd in MVP votes twice. Irving has never recieved a single MVP vote (I think). Irving has made the All-NBA 3rd team 1 time, Harden's made the first team 3 times and the third team once.

Harden is superior to Irving by every statistical measure I can think of as well.

Right. I am not positive that Kyrie is better than Harden at anything, including defense, which is saying something.

Yeah I love Kyrie, but Harden > Kyrie, and you can make the case Harden is actually a Top-5 player in this league, or at least somewhere in the Top-7 (as a given, no doubts).

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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2018, 12:23:12 PM »

Offline JBcat

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Some of these guys like James Harden made a leap in their game from Irvingís age now to where they are now.  So even if itís debatable if Irving is a superstar now I feel confident in a couple years heíll cement his status as a superstar especially as some of these older guys like Harden start to tail off.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2018, 03:40:30 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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I like how OP mentions Rockets have Harden but canít credit Irving.

Harden is a LOSER. Nothing about his past says otherwise and come May, we will be saying the same thing.

Irving is a champion. He was an integral part of three Finals teams and hit the shot to win game 7. Thereís a good chance Cleveland wins in 2015 if he plays.

I donít see how Irving isnít a superstar. Thatís like saying Durant isnít.
Harden has finished 2nd in MVP votes twice. Irving has never recieved a single MVP vote (I think). Irving has made the All-NBA 3rd team 1 time, Harden's made the first team 3 times and the third team once.

Harden is superior to Irving by every statistical measure I can think of as well.

Right. I am not positive that Kyrie is better than Harden at anything, including defense, which is saying something.

Yeah I love Kyrie, but Harden > Kyrie, and you can make the case Harden is actually a Top-5 player in this league, or at least somewhere in the Top-7 (as a given, no doubts).

I say Harden is Top-5, though probably at #5. He is a legitimate MVP candidate right now, and the favorite to win it this year for sure.

What gives HOU a better chance this year than in year's past is that they have CP3 as well, and it's working between Harden-CP3. CP3 can facilitate while Harden does his thing, and as long as they hit their shots, they are good. But Harden is still a huge part of the Rockets' success, but yeah I agree with above posters that he'll have to elevate his game a bit more in the playoffs.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2018, 03:44:33 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Do All Star Votes correlate to Super Star Status?
According to some definitions of the word Super Star.

Absolutely. The term can mean so many different things, Im really not sure how valuable it is.
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Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 04:05:51 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Do All Star Votes correlate to Super Star Status?

Idk, lets ask Zaza Pachulia after last year  :P
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