Author Topic: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)  (Read 2305 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« on: February 17, 2018, 09:27:25 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

  • Marcus Morris
  • Posts: 89
  • Tommy Points: 14
The saying is, "Superstars win in this league", and honestly I think that is proving to be true nowadays.

The Cavaliers have Lebron. Warriors have Curry and Durant. Rockets have Harden. Spurs have Leonard. Those teams (including Spurs if Leonard is healthy) are understandably the teams with highest odds to win it all.

Meanwhile, Toronto is a fantastic team and DeRozan has had a fantastic year, BUT no one really considers them a true Finals threat, because DeRozan is a star but not considered a superstar.

Now that's not at all to say that teams can't win the Finals if they don't have a superstar, but the odds are definitely low, and the relative trend shows that having superstar(s) win you rings in this league (especially since 2000).

And also, I'm NOT ripping the Celtics here, as I know we are missing Hayward and have a ton of rookies and relatively new faces. But that reality is why we are struggling a bit more now and aren't considered true Finals threats at the moment. We could make ECF at best maybe according to most.

But that's also why I say, "Yet". Tatum and Brown are young and upcoming studs. Kyrie could improve and become more consistent while turning into a superstar. And who knows, maybe Hayward comes back and plays like a superstar in this system with CBS.

So patience guys! This is a young and growing team, suffering with key injuries as well, and they are still 40-19 despite having some obvious flaws. The rough stretch was honestly expected but I think this ASB will do us real well (guys simply lacked effort/hustle which looked evident from fatigue and the Smart injury).

We are definitely capable of winning Banner 18 with most of this core, and I think that could be a reality sometime in the next 1-3 years. Hopefully someone (or multiple players) grow into superstar-caliber players that can legitimately carry us going forward.

We play excellent team ball but superstars help set us apart from other elite teams, and can sometimes prove to be the difference between a team that makes a conference finals, and one that goes on to win the entire thing.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 10:11:48 PM »

Offline Chris22

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3988
  • Tommy Points: 348
One superstar would do it, I think.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 10:34:30 PM »

Offline mr. dee

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5546
  • Tommy Points: 410
Rockets haven't won anything yet. "Superstar" thing can be taken out of context. You have perennial losers like Chris Paul, Blake Griffin and James Harden who haven't even reached the Finals.

There's no guarantee you will win with superstars either. Talent, chemistry and luck comes all together to build a championship team. We have seen a collection of talents that didn't mesh well because of poor chemistry.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 10:53:58 PM »

Offline LilRip

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3525
  • Tommy Points: 413
Kyrie is our superstar. Hes as good as Curry, IMO. If they were switched, GSW would still be a contender.
- LilRip

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 10:57:39 PM »

Offline mr. dee

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5546
  • Tommy Points: 410
Curry is a system Superstar. I don't think he will succeed on other system, especially ones that relies too much on iso-ball or doesn't cover up his defensive deficiencies.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 11:19:24 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32271
  • Tommy Points: 5295
Curry is a system Superstar. I don't think he will succeed on other system, especially ones that relies too much on iso-ball or doesn't cover up his defensive deficiencies.
Was he a system superstar in Cleveland last year when he played in Cleveland averaging 25 PPG and being a massive reason why Cleveland cruised in the playooffs to thr Finals? I didn't know Cleveland's "system"was so great.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 11:24:40 PM »

Offline Greyman

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 716
  • Tommy Points: 139
Curry is a system Superstar. I don't think he will succeed on other system, especially ones that relies too much on iso-ball or doesn't cover up his defensive deficiencies.
Was he a system superstar in Cleveland last year when he played in Cleveland averaging 25 PPG and being a massive reason why Cleveland cruised in the playooffs to thr Finals? I didn't know Cleveland's "system"was so great.

Are we confusing Kyrie and Curry?

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 11:28:47 PM »

Offline mr. dee

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5546
  • Tommy Points: 410
Curry is a system Superstar. I don't think he will succeed on other system, especially ones that relies too much on iso-ball or doesn't cover up his defensive deficiencies.
Was he a system superstar in Cleveland last year when he played in Cleveland averaging 25 PPG and being a massive reason why Cleveland cruised in the playooffs to thr Finals? I didn't know Cleveland's "system"was so great.

Yes. He can average as many PPG as he want but if it wasn't for Steve Kerr's system, they'd still be a 2nd round fodder. And I clearly said, superstar not role player. Curry needs to have a right system to be relied on a championship team.

Cavs have Lebron. He'd plug anywhere because of his sheer talent alone even with a terrible coaching and system. But you have to run 90% of plays on him.

Curry is a talented player, but he's not a guy that can just easily transform a lottery team to a contender.


Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 11:29:46 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1938
  • Tommy Points: 357
Do championship teams make superstars, or do superstars make championship teams?

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 12:37:51 AM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3713
  • Tommy Points: 248
Superstar is plan A. I think Kyrie can be/is that guy, and Danny's parting with the pick is part of the evidence to me.  He's the guy you want Hayward and Horford around.

Then there's the Pistons plan:  very good players, great fit and coach.  This is how very good, but not great players get max or near deals: filling out these teams.

This season was a wash on day 1; now I wonder if Horford will still have juice next year, Hayward will be 100%, Smart stays or goes, Moose resigns, and Brown/Tatum are playoff ready for next season.

But I don't wonder whether or not we have a superstar. Kyrie is the real deal.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 01:09:50 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32271
  • Tommy Points: 5295
Curry is a system Superstar. I don't think he will succeed on other system, especially ones that relies too much on iso-ball or doesn't cover up his defensive deficiencies.
Was he a system superstar in Cleveland last year when he played in Cleveland averaging 25 PPG and being a massive reason why Cleveland cruised in the playooffs to thr Finals? I didn't know Cleveland's "system"was so great.

Are we confusing Kyrie and Curry?
Yes I am. My bad. LOL.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 04:18:14 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15410
  • Tommy Points: 980
Quote
The saying is, "Superstars win in this league", and honestly I think that is proving to be true nowadays.

Doh!

What about this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORqiqbJYl0w

Yep, that is right Kyrie has done the very thing that the OP has claimed.   


Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 02:21:46 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7820
  • Tommy Points: 589
  • On To Banner 18!
Do championship teams make superstars, or do superstars make championship teams?

That's a deep thought.

I'd say championship teams elevate stars (better overall surroundings), while superstars elevate championship teams.
2018 Mock Trade Deadline (New York Knicks)

Roster: Porzingis, Kanter, Hardaway Jr, Julius Randle, Schroder, Beasley, Alex Abrines, Jarrett Jack, Frank Ntilikina, Lance Thomas, Kyle Singler, Josh Huestis, Ron Baker, Trey Burke, Luke Kornet, Isaiah Hicks

Future Draft Picks: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knick

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 02:39:24 PM »

Offline kmart12

  • Aron Baynes
  • Posts: 105
  • Tommy Points: 10
Do championship teams make superstars, or do superstars make championship teams?

I think this is a valid question; I have always been surprised by analysts' suggestion that a player like Draymond Green is a top 20 or top 15 player in the league given how well he fits in to the system he plays for. I know I am not the first person to question whether or not a player of his caliber would thrive similarly in a different context, but his rise to stardom is one I would attribute to being part of a championship team. I guess a secondary question would be, 'are top 20 players considered superstars?'. I would think so, but the top 5 or 6 players in the league tend to be on another level of greatness in comparison.

As far as what the Celtics are working with, I believe that Kyrie is technically one of those "superstar" players considering his ability to close out games and win when it counts. His production is also fairly consistent and he scores well and efficiently (24 PPG is hard to top). I suppose my issue with Kyrie is that he is less of a playmaker than I envisioned him to be, especially after transitioning to Stevens system without a ball dominant player like Lebron. I think that there is another level of greatness that Kyrie could achieve if he were to improve in different areas of his game, because I think it would be absurd to expect him to take an additional leap in scoring. If he improves his defense or playmaking ability as a lead guard, I may consider him in that tier along with the ten or so players that are certainly better than he is currently.

I will say that I thought Hayward was on his way to becoming a top-tier talent after the season he had last year. He elevated his game as a defender and became an efficient and reliable 20 point scorer, and could shoulder the load of a pretty talentless Utah Jazz team. Like Kyrie, he performed in the playoffs and carried them about as far as they could go given the suboptimal talent he was working with. However, I am reserved in believing that Hayward can continue his improvement after suffering such a drastic injury.

Re: Superstars win rings in this league. We don't have any (Yet!)
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 03:27:05 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1938
  • Tommy Points: 357
Do championship teams make superstars, or do superstars make championship teams?

That's a deep thought.

I'd say championship teams elevate stars (better overall surroundings), while superstars elevate championship teams.

I like this idea, but the line between stars and superstars is often pretty blurry. For instance, I personally think Ginobli elevated the Spurs more than they elevated him. Does that mean Manu Ginobli is a superstar? I probably wouldn't put him in that category, but he is near the top of my list of players who I'd want to have on my team in a championship game.

This is where I think we have to stop viewing players a static commodity with static abilities (ala NBA 2k ratings). Revisionist history almost always changes the narrative about players after a championship, but they were the same players before or after.