Author Topic: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.  (Read 4040 times)

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Offline PhoSita

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The problem with college athletics and the pay structure, is there are so many significant differences between the future earning potential of players, schools, etc. that it is hard to find a stead fast rule.  Even on the super elite basketball programs, generally less than half of the athletes will play professionally.  Very few athletic programs even make money.  Sure the football and basketball programs at the top level schools make gobs of money, but most college sports lose significant money and as a result most athletic programs lose money. 

Here is an article from December 2014, in which a US Representative said only 20 FBS programs made money  http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/.  Politfact said that was a true statement.  On average, football netted 3 million, men's basketball netted 340k and every other sport lost money, and most lost significant amounts, such that the average for the 120 or so schools was a loss of 11.6 million dollars per year by their athletic departments. 

So with rules like Title IX and other equality rules, how exactly do you pay football and basketball players, but not pay women's volleyball, or ice hockey, or soccer, or track and field, etc.  You just can't do it.   

The only logical solution is to make it so the top of the line players aren't in college.  Let them go to a minor or developmental league, or you know the top league right away.

I think it's fair to say the problem here is the very top programs that generate all the money and get all the national attention.

Those programs -- which are in essence quasi-sports franchises in and of themselves -- should be separated from the rest and treated differently.
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The problem with college athletics and the pay structure, is there are so many significant differences between the future earning potential of players, schools, etc. that it is hard to find a stead fast rule.  Even on the super elite basketball programs, generally less than half of the athletes will play professionally.  Very few athletic programs even make money.  Sure the football and basketball programs at the top level schools make gobs of money, but most college sports lose significant money and as a result most athletic programs lose money. 

Here is an article from December 2014, in which a US Representative said only 20 FBS programs made money  http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/.  Politfact said that was a true statement.  On average, football netted 3 million, men's basketball netted 340k and every other sport lost money, and most lost significant amounts, such that the average for the 120 or so schools was a loss of 11.6 million dollars per year by their athletic departments. 

So with rules like Title IX and other equality rules, how exactly do you pay football and basketball players, but not pay women's volleyball, or ice hockey, or soccer, or track and field, etc.  You just can't do it.   

The only logical solution is to make it so the top of the line players aren't in college.  Let them go to a minor or developmental league, or you know the top league right away.

Well, you could start by allowing them to be paid rather than paying them directly. Allow players to market themselves etc.

But I'd prefer to see a better developmental league anyway.

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Good.
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Offline GreenEnvy

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Is it unpaid if you get an athletic scholarship though?


What's the ratio between the value provided to the students and the value provided to the NCAA / schools?  How much money are they generating?

If the answer is "lopsided," isn't that an artificial market condition created to greatly advantage the owners and greatly disadvantage the laborers in this scenario?  It's not "slavery" -- the word the previous poster was alluding to -- but isn't it similar to indentured servitude?


How many of these "student athletes" graduate?  How many of them end up with gainful employment as a result of the great education they're getting?

How many of these "student athletes" would ever go to college at all if it weren't for this arrangement that requires them to do so for a year or two in order to pursue their actual career aspiration, i.e. professional sports?


At the very least the elite tier schools that enjoy the benefits of having these star amateur athletes wearing their uniforms should be required to create a separate school & program for students that intend to go into sports as a career.  There should be a system created for allowing the students to go on learning and working toward their degrees even after they go pro and stop playing for the school.  And there should be a penalty paid by the school for any scholarship athlete that doesn't end up earning their degree.

Oh, and the schools should be required to provide medical coverage for any and all injuries sustained during the course of playing sports for the benefit of the schools.  Including cumulative injuries that are only discovered later.  That medical coverage should last for life, and the schools should be required to pay compensation to the students for any lasting disability resulting from injuries the students sustain.

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you donít think they are making more off him than that?

What about the scholars that bring in more money for the school? Should they be compensated beyond a full academic scholarship?

I personally am not a huge college fan so maybe Iím wrong, but arenít the programs what create the money, not necessarily the individual players themselves? Like did Kentucky suffer by not having Fultz play for them? Did UCLA crumble when Ball left? Think of the ramifications of a star like LeBron leaving the Cavs.

The reason schools enjoy these star amateur athletes at their school is because of the pro leagues rules that require they be X years removed from high school. They DO receive the benefit of learning the game and enhancing their skills. Iíve never heard of a case where a player would have been so much better had he jumped straight to the pros instead of going to college.

So the non stars get a free education, and the stars hone their skills. It may not be fair value, but itís certainly not nothing.
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Offline PhoSita

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But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you donít think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
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Offline Moranis

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But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you donít think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.

Offline nickagneta

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But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you donít think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.
So what are the percentages for football and men's basketball players? Rather than skewing the percentages by using every college athlete, don't you think it would be pertinent to include those percentages since thats what most of the conversation is about?

Offline Moranis

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But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you donít think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.
So what are the percentages for football and men's basketball players? Rather than skewing the percentages by using every college athlete, don't you think it would be pertinent to include those percentages since thats what most of the conversation is about?
But you can't pay just football and basketball players and not the other sports.  It is illegal.  So any change in the system has to affect all sports.  That said the football and men's basketball players are around 70%, still above the regular population, but much closer to it.  Of course there are plenty of reasons for that.  Obviously, many end up leaving early to pursue a professional career (that happens in other fields as well, like music, drama, computer programming, etc. but it is less common).  Those two sports are also often comprised of a much larger percentage of people that if not for the sport would not be in college at all as a result of their upbringing, financial capability, etc. 

The simple reality is the structure of playing a college sport, needing to remain eligible to do so, and the institutional support provided for that purpose (i.e. scholarships, tutors, etc.) yield a far higher percentage of graduates than the regular population. 

Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2018, 08:34:47 AM »

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Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Quote
The ongoing federal investigation into corruption in college basketball has unearthed new financial documents which appear to link former NBA agent Andy Miller's ASM Sports to a litany of prominent basketball players - relationships which would likely contravene the very nucleus of NCAA amateurism.

The documents, obtained by Yahoo Sports' Pat Forde and Pete Thamel, include a balance sheet entitled "Loan to Players." That document features a list of purported cash advances to notable players now among the professional ranks, including - but by no means limited to - Toronto Raptors All-Star Kyle Lowry, Philadelphia 76ers 2017 No. 1 draft pick Markelle Fultz, Los Angeles Lakers rookie Kyle Kuzma, Dallas Mavericks rookie Dennis Smith Jr., and Miami Heat rookie Bam Adebayo.

I'm sure a million other names will surface, just sharing another new report.

https://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1491549
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:01:34 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2018, 08:56:56 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
ASM Sports "loans" Dennis Smith 73k and he doesn't sign with them.  Wonder how much the agency that Smith did sign with "loaned" him? 

Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2018, 09:04:40 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
ASM Sports "loans" Dennis Smith 73k and he doesn't sign with them.  Wonder how much the agency that Smith did sign with "loaned" him?

Quote
Thereís potential impermissible benefits and preferential treatment for players and families of players at Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC, Alabama and a host of other schools. The documents link some of the sportís biggest current stars Ė Michigan Stateís Miles Bridges, Alabamaís Collin Sexton and Dukeís Wendell Carter Ė to specific potential extra benefits for either the athletes or their family members. The amounts tied to players in the case range from basic meals to tens of thousands of dollars.

I always wondered if Duke was the one program above this stuff purely out of respect for Coach K.  Despite how irrational it sounds, I honestly believed it was possible.  But it's probably safe to say that every major program -- and many other mid to low tier D1 schools -- are all guilty of the same.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:10:59 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 09:17:31 AM »

Offline bdm860

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...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html

The pictures included in this article are the most interesting thing to me (some of them are big, so you may have to scroll over or right click to view image to see the whole thing):




« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:30:38 AM by bdm860 »

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Offline Donoghus

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Unbelievable.  "Loans to Players" right there on the balance sheet.  Way to keep things incognito. 

Interesting to see names like Haywood & Jefferies as loans receivable on a 12/31/15 balance sheet when those guys have been out of college for over a decade at that point.


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Offline Kuberski33

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The entire system is corrupt - and not just the football and basketball programs.  The universities themselves that condone this stuff - because it helps attract paying students to their schools - at ridiculously inflated prices causing them to run up tons of debt that smothers them economically for years to come...) And then there's NBA and NFL which use Div 1 (at least the major conferences) as a no cost minor league.

I really think we're going to see some change in basketball because the NCAA is going to feel the pain from losing some major sponsors - and for the NBA their biggest benefit right now is they don't have to bring the top talent in right out of high school and babysit these guys for a year.

The games themselves are different.  Different rules, different style of play.  I think the only thing that keeps it going is the 'free' aspect and many owners see it as a better alternative than plowing too much money into their own training programs.

The question is how much 'embarrassment' can the NBA and NCAA take before the negatives of the current 'system' supersede the no cost benefit?