Author Topic: Gun Control?  (Read 16703 times)

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #555 on: April 22, 2018, 09:08:35 PM »

Online gouki88

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It amazes me that the Parkland students can object strongly to clear backpacks because they violate their “rights” and will have little effect, while advocating for gun control.

Either personal liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good, or they don’t.  The fact that there’s so little recognition of the “liberty vs. safety” debate is sad.  It just shows that many of the “activists” haven’t thought through their positions fully, at least from a principled standpoint.

All the clear backpacks in the world wouldn't have stopped the Parkland shooter... He wasn't a student at the school.  He had a dufflebag with an AR-15 in it, walked into the school and started shooting.

You probably don't know this, but he killed 18 people at the school.  That probably has more to do with why the students are upset about getting clear backpacks instead of meaningful change that would prevent another mass shooting.
Being condescending is probably the way to go about talking to people about this issue

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #556 on: April 22, 2018, 09:24:45 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.
Thing is, this comment is about Great Britain and not America. Not all citizens of all countries view rights the same. I am sure most British citizens feel they live in a fantastic nation and have no problem not having the right to bear fire arms. And they might feel as though giving up the right to carry knives as weaponry will be okay too.

Each society and nation have different views of what their rights are. We might not agree with how those countries do things or view the rights of their citizens, but those citizens might be quite happy with the way their country does things.

I respect the sovereign right of the people of England to govern themselves.  But that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion on how they choose to govern themselves.

It's no different than having an opinion about a country that chooses to deny homosexuals any assortment of rights.  The majority of the people in such countries might also be happy.  But I find that every bit as distressing.  Are you saying I'm wrong to be distressed by that?

Nice job on the false equivalency between guns and homosexuality.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #557 on: April 22, 2018, 09:32:52 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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It amazes me that the Parkland students can object strongly to clear backpacks because they violate their “rights” and will have little effect, while advocating for gun control.

Either personal liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good, or they don’t.  The fact that there’s so little recognition of the “liberty vs. safety” debate is sad.  It just shows that many of the “activists” haven’t thought through their positions fully, at least from a principled standpoint.

All the clear backpacks in the world wouldn't have stopped the Parkland shooter... He wasn't a student at the school.  He had a dufflebag with an AR-15 in it, walked into the school and started shooting.

You probably don't know this, but he killed 18 people at the school.  That probably has more to do with why the students are upset about getting clear backpacks instead of meaningful change that would prevent another mass shooting.
Being condescending is probably the way to go about talking to people about this issue
Then congrats! You're doing a great job at it!

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #558 on: April 23, 2018, 02:29:49 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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In the meanwhile, the shooter that killed 4 people at Waffle House in TN with an AR-15 is allegedly the same guy that breached a security barrier at the White House last year demanding to "inspect the grounds" while in possession of several firearms.

How the heck did he get a hold of a semiautomatic rifle yet AGAIN?!
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #559 on: April 23, 2018, 02:37:31 PM »

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In the meanwhile, the shooter that killed 4 people at Waffle House in TN with an AR-15 is allegedly the same guy that breached a security barrier at the White House last year demanding to "inspect the grounds" while in possession of several firearms.

How the heck did he get a hold of a semiautomatic rifle yet AGAIN?!
His dad gave back the gun, the gun that the FBI had confiscated but had then given back to the dad who promised not to give back to his son, to his son that then used it to shoot up the Waffle House.

We've kinda gone over this over the last page or so koz😝😉😁

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #560 on: April 23, 2018, 02:37:55 PM »

Offline byennie

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It amazes me that the Parkland students can object strongly to clear backpacks because they violate their “rights” and will have little effect, while advocating for gun control.

Either personal liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good, or they don’t.  The fact that there’s so little recognition of the “liberty vs. safety” debate is sad.  It just shows that many of the “activists” haven’t thought through their positions fully, at least from a principled standpoint.

I believe the principled position would be: sacrifice liberty as little as possible, and only when necessary to ensure life & the pursuit of happiness.

Clear backpacks fail that test miserably and should be rejected by everyone, because they give up liberty for no good reason. Gun control does not. Seems perfectly rational to me.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #561 on: April 23, 2018, 02:45:58 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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In the meanwhile, the shooter that killed 4 people at Waffle House in TN with an AR-15 is allegedly the same guy that breached a security barrier at the White House last year demanding to "inspect the grounds" while in possession of several firearms.

How the heck did he get a hold of a semiautomatic rifle yet AGAIN?!
His dad gave back the gun, the gun that the FBI had confiscated but had then given back to the dad who promised not to give back to his son, to his son that then used it to shoot up the Waffle House.

We've kinda gone over this over the last page or so koz😝😉😁
I'm late to the party as usual, what's new?  8)
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #562 on: April 23, 2018, 02:47:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Unbelievable


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/23/waffle-house-shooting-travis-reinking-father-gun-laws/541581002/


Quote
NASHVILLE — By the time Illinois law enforcement showed up in August 2017 at the Reinking family business, then-28-year-old Travis Reinking had already been arrested outside the White House and previously threatened people with an AR-15 rifle.

Some really confusing stuff about what may have happened with the guns

April 22: A 29-year-old man saved numerous lives during Tennessee Waffle House shooting, police say

April 22: Tennessee Waffle House shooting: 4 dead, suspect at large may be armed
The Tazewell County (Ill.) Sheriff's Office went to the crane company owned by Reinking's father to talk with Travis Reinking and take away his guns.

They took the guns from Travis Reinking, but immediately gave them to Reinking's father, according to records.

"(The father) was advised that he needed to keep the weapons secure and away from Travis. (The father) stated he would comply," reads a report from the sheriff's office.


One of those guns was used to kill four people Sunday at a Waffle House outside Nashville in Antioch, Tenn., according to Nashville police and federal officials. Police continue to search Monday for Travis Reinking.

In 2017, the U.S. Secret Service arrested Reinking for being in a "restricted area" near the White House, according to Nashville police. It was after that arrest that his weapons were seized by Illinois law enforcement and his gun owners registration card revoked.

How he managed to reacquire weapons after Illinois law enforcement determined he was not legally allowed to possess any is being investigated.


But a review of Illinois and Tennessee state laws show it's unclear whether Travis Reinking or his father violated any firearms laws before Travis Reinking opened fire early Sunday.

"It is somewhat concerning. You balance the rights of people to have their privacy, but on the other hand, there needs to be a coordinated effort — especially in terms of mental health issues — to ensure that weapons do not fall into their hands, at least lawfully," Nashville Police Chief Steve Anderson said at a Sunday afternoon news conference.


"(The weapons) would not have been lawfully in his hands in Illinois. Now, possessing them in Tennessee, I don't know that he would have violated any Tennessee law."


Until August 2017, Reinking was allowed to own guns in Illinois
To own guns in Illinois, most people need to acquire a firearm owners identification card. This is different from a license to carry a concealed weapon in the state.

There are few barriers to eligibility for an owners card, according to state law.

Applicants must:

• Be 21 years old, or have the written consent of a parent who already has an authorization card;

• Have no felony convictions;

• Not be addicted to narcotics;

• Not have been a patient in a mental health facility within the past five years;

• Not have any orders of protection filed against them.

Records indicate Travis Reinking had a valid firearm owners identification card as of August 2017, which would have expired in 2020. When law enforcement came to his father's business, they had a revocation order from the Illinois state police, records show.

Travis Reinking gave the sheriff's deputies his owner's card and helped collect his weapons and ammunition.


A state police firearm disposition record shows Travis Reinking surrendered four weapons: the AR-15, a 9mm handgun and two hunting rifles.


While the form states the weapons were being revoked, it also includes a listing for the name and address of a person to whom the firearms will be transferred.

Reinking's father, who has a valid owner's card, is listed as the person who received the weapons.

Law enforcement officials believe Reinking's father returned the weapons to Reinking. Tazewell County Sheriff Robert M. Huston said Sunday his office has no information as to when Reinking obtained his weapons after August 2017.


Under Illinois law, no one may give away a weapon to anyone who does not have a valid owner's card. However, there's an exemption if the transfer is a "bona fide gift" to a relative, according to state law.

It's also unclear whether any Tennessee law prevents someone who is not allowed to possess guns in another state from owning guns in the Volunteer State.

Representatives from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, Tennessee Highway Patrol and the Tennessee attorney general did not immediately answer questions about the legality of Reinking having guns in Tennessee.


Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #563 on: April 23, 2018, 02:54:59 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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"(The weapons) would not have been lawfully in his hands in Illinois. Now, possessing them in Tennessee, I don't know that he would have violated any Tennessee law."
Isn't taking weapons across state lines a federal crime?

edit: I guess not, but in his particular  case he still couldn't take guns from IL to TN under FOPA, because he couldn't legally possess them in IL.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #564 on: April 23, 2018, 03:32:22 PM »

Online Roy H.

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"(The weapons) would not have been lawfully in his hands in Illinois. Now, possessing them in Tennessee, I don't know that he would have violated any Tennessee law."
Isn't taking weapons across state lines a federal crime?

edit: I guess not, but in his particular  case he still couldn't take guns from IL to TN under FOPA, because he couldn't legally possess them in IL.

But, his dad probably could have legally done the transporting.

“No gun” orders should be given nationwide reciprocity. Add that to the list of sensible gun control measures that should happen immediately, but won’t.


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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #565 on: April 24, 2018, 10:14:06 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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US police, watch and learn:

Quote
The officer who arrested Mr Minassian was praised for not opening fire during a standoff with the suspect, who claimed to be armed and pointed an object at the officer.

Video broadcast on CBC News showed the suspect shouting "kill me", while the officer instructs him to get down.

When he said he had a gun, the officer said: "I don't care. Get down." He was then arrested without any shots being fired. He is due in court at 10:00 local time (14:00 GMT) on Tuesday.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43875321
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #566 on: April 25, 2018, 01:33:50 AM »

Online LatterDayCelticsfan

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It amazes me that the Parkland students can object strongly to clear backpacks because they violate their “rights” and will have little effect, while advocating for gun control.

Either personal liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good, or they don’t.  The fact that there’s so little recognition of the “liberty vs. safety” debate is sad.  It just shows that many of the “activists” haven’t thought through their positions fully, at least from a principled standpoint.

I believe the principled position would be: sacrifice liberty as little as possible, and only when necessary to ensure life & the pursuit of happiness.

Clear backpacks fail that test miserably and should be rejected by everyone, because they give up liberty for no good reason. Gun control does not. Seems perfectly rational to me.

The clear back packs thing seems like a distraction. Some higher up really wants the chatter on gun control to fizzle out, so bring up some random other controversy to draw away the energy of the high school kids pushing for gun control.  Just my two cents.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #567 on: April 25, 2018, 05:33:58 AM »

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US police, watch and learn:

Quote
The officer who arrested Mr Minassian was praised for not opening fire during a standoff with the suspect, who claimed to be armed and pointed an object at the officer.

Video broadcast on CBC News showed the suspect shouting "kill me", while the officer instructs him to get down.

When he said he had a gun, the officer said: "I don't care. Get down." He was then arrested without any shots being fired. He is due in court at 10:00 local time (14:00 GMT) on Tuesday.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43875321

Thanks, Koz. This story should be shared over and over. It's the way it's supposed to go. None of this crap where the cops just empty the clip every time they can claim they were afraid, which seems to be pretty often.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #568 on: April 25, 2018, 07:03:46 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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But, his dad probably could have legally done the transporting.

“No gun” orders should be given nationwide reciprocity. Add that to the list of sensible gun control measures that should happen immediately, but won’t.

I think we need to start going after parents who get their mentally ill children guns in the first place.   This is very poor parenting and places the public at risk.  It is very poor judgement.   Another case of a poor parenting leads to more deaths.

What use is gun control if we have people at present that ignore existing laws.  Giving his son the guns back was dumb.

Quote
When he said he had a gun, the officer said: "I don't care. Get down." He was then arrested without any shots being fired. He is due in court at 10:00 local time (14:00 GMT) on Tuesday.

This officer was lucky that the perpetrator did not escalate the situation further and that is all.   I bet a lot of our guys in the USA say put the gun down but we have a gun culture in the USA that is different than the rest of the world.   

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #569 on: April 25, 2018, 10:38:21 AM »

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Quote
But, his dad probably could have legally done the transporting.

“No gun” orders should be given nationwide reciprocity. Add that to the list of sensible gun control measures that should happen immediately, but won’t.

I think we need to start going after parents who get their mentally ill children guns in the first place.   This is very poor parenting and places the public at risk.  It is very poor judgement.   Another case of a poor parenting leads to more deaths.

What use is gun control if we have people at present that ignore existing laws.  Giving his son the guns back was dumb.

Quote
When he said he had a gun, the officer said: "I don't care. Get down." He was then arrested without any shots being fired. He is due in court at 10:00 local time (14:00 GMT) on Tuesday.

This officer was lucky that the perpetrator did not escalate the situation further and that is all.   I bet a lot of our guys in the USA say put the gun down but we have a gun culture in the USA that is different than the rest of the world.

Well, I'm confident that in almost all cases, the police officer says drop the weapon, put down the gun, or whatever.

At least I'm confident that nearly all police reports filed in the pre-video era say they said that. 

The only thing with any chance of holding cops accountable is video, but  everyone who remembers the King beating in LA to the more current clips of scared crapless people with guns and badges doesn't really believes that either.