Author Topic: Gun Control?  (Read 17547 times)

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #540 on: April 09, 2018, 06:10:31 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #541 on: April 09, 2018, 06:41:26 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.

We live in a world of mixed opinions and perspectives.  There are some who hold "liberty" as the highest value and others willing to compromise liberties for values that they hold even dearer, like safety or the pursuit of happiness.  What you get in a world of 7.5 billion people is awfully complex because if even 1% of those 7.5B are people who are impediments to the happiness of others, that places 75 million people in that category. I completely respect your commitment to liberty -- in fact, your POV always makes me think deeper than I otherwise would -- but I always seem to end on the side of willingness to compromise liberty in the interest of what I see as greater good. 

So much of this issue is dependent on one's own experiences and how one processes his/her life experiences.  I have always felt a tremendous amount of "liberty" or freedom in my life.  I still (after nearly 60 years) feel as though I wake up every day with the ability to make choices about how to manage my day and my life (especially on the weekends).  I have felt that way throughout the experience of raising 2 daughters, a 30-year marriage, and 40 years of a career that has brought me a slightly higher than middle class life.   So much of this is about perception.  I see my experience as an American as being filled with liberties.  And I know that others don't see it that way.   So even though I remain open to the idea of limiting the sale of war-grade guns (and probably machetes and bayonets to go with the knife theme), I don't advocate for such things lightly.  I am open to it -- that doesn't mean I want to do it. Just means that if a comprehensive approach to making us safer from multi-victim terror attacks is actually put forward, I'll listen and if it sounds sensible and if the compromise of liberty seems acceptable to me, I'll probably be in favor. 

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #542 on: April 09, 2018, 07:01:36 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”

Never a reason to carry a knife? I can think of lots.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #543 on: April 09, 2018, 07:29:47 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.

We live in a world of mixed opinions and perspectives.  There are some who hold "liberty" as the highest value and others willing to compromise liberties for values that they hold even dearer, like safety or the pursuit of happiness.  What you get in a world of 7.5 billion people is awfully complex because if even 1% of those 7.5B are people who are impediments to the happiness of others, that places 75 million people in that category. I completely respect your commitment to liberty -- in fact, your POV always makes me think deeper than I otherwise would -- but I always seem to end on the side of willingness to compromise liberty in the interest of what I see as greater good. 

So much of this issue is dependent on one's own experiences and how one processes his/her life experiences.  I have always felt a tremendous amount of "liberty" or freedom in my life.  I still (after nearly 60 years) feel as though I wake up every day with the ability to make choices about how to manage my day and my life (especially on the weekends).  I have felt that way throughout the experience of raising 2 daughters, a 30-year marriage, and 40 years of a career that has brought me a slightly higher than middle class life.   So much of this is about perception.  I see my experience as an American as being filled with liberties.  And I know that others don't see it that way.   So even though I remain open to the idea of limiting the sale of war-grade guns (and probably machetes and bayonets to go with the knife theme), I don't advocate for such things lightly.  I am open to it -- that doesn't mean I want to do it. Just means that if a comprehensive approach to making us safer from multi-victim terror attacks is actually put forward, I'll listen and if it sounds sensible and if the compromise of liberty seems acceptable to me, I'll probably be in favor. 


You and I don't always see eye to eye on things, but I respect your thought process.  Most importantly, because it seems like you actually have a thought process, and don't just succumb to blind emotion like I feel too many people do.  Your words are measured and thoughtful.

So I appreciate your thoughts here on this subject.  But to counter, while I do place individual liberty above all else, as in my opinion without it the right to life does not even exist, I also value safety and happiness.  But to be truly safe one must have the freedom to protect one's self, free from the dependence on others.  And to be truly happy, again, one must be free to live their life how they see fit.  But if I am not free to protect myself as I see fit, then I am not being allowed to life my life as I see fit, therefore complete happiness will never be achievable.

It is for these reasons, among others, I am just very rarely ever willing to sacrifice freedoms.  And while I do realize living in a society requires compromise, I personally feel like there has already been too much compromise and erosion of freedoms in this world.  Too many people desire to tell other how they should be living their lives, and what conditions they must adhere to be apart of society.  I find that all a bit distressing.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #544 on: April 09, 2018, 08:01:28 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.
Thing is, this comment is about Great Britain and not America. Not all citizens of all countries view rights the same. I am sure most British citizens feel they live in a fantastic nation and have no problem not having the right to bear fire arms. And they might feel as though giving up the right to carry knives as weaponry will be okay too.

Each society and nation have different views of what their rights are. We might not agree with how those countries do things or view the rights of their citizens, but those citizens might be quite happy with the way their country does things.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #545 on: April 09, 2018, 08:35:04 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Quote
London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.
Thing is, this comment is about Great Britain and not America. Not all citizens of all countries view rights the same. I am sure most British citizens feel they live in a fantastic nation and have no problem not having the right to bear fire arms. And they might feel as though giving up the right to carry knives as weaponry will be okay too.

Each society and nation have different views of what their rights are. We might not agree with how those countries do things or view the rights of their citizens, but those citizens might be quite happy with the way their country does things.

I respect the sovereign right of the people of England to govern themselves.  But that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion on how they choose to govern themselves.

It's no different than having an opinion about a country that chooses to deny homosexuals any assortment of rights.  The majority of the people in such countries might also be happy.  But I find that every bit as distressing.  Are you saying I'm wrong to be distressed by that?

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #546 on: April 09, 2018, 08:49:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.
Thing is, this comment is about Great Britain and not America. Not all citizens of all countries view rights the same. I am sure most British citizens feel they live in a fantastic nation and have no problem not having the right to bear fire arms. And they might feel as though giving up the right to carry knives as weaponry will be okay too.

Each society and nation have different views of what their rights are. We might not agree with how those countries do things or view the rights of their citizens, but those citizens might be quite happy with the way their country does things.

I respect the sovereign right of the people of England to govern themselves.  But that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion on how they choose to govern themselves.

It's no different than having an opinion about a country that chooses to deny homosexuals any assortment of rights.  The majority of the people in such countries might also be happy.  But I find that every bit as distressing.  Are you saying I'm wrong to be distressed by that?
Not at all. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Just stressing that we were talking about another country and not America and that some might find the right to protect yourself with weaponry as a human right, many outside this country do not. And, the comment was about Great Britain. Just stressing that.


Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #547 on: April 10, 2018, 10:36:54 AM »

Offline gift

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Quote
London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a tough crackdown on knives Sunday as the city reels from a spike in stabbings that have led its number of homicides to top New York City's for two straight months.

He tweeted: “No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”



I cannot even begin to describe how terribly frustrating and horrifying I find this mentality.

Individual liberty apparently no longer exists in much of the 'modern' world.  It's disturbing.

We live in a world of mixed opinions and perspectives.  There are some who hold "liberty" as the highest value and others willing to compromise liberties for values that they hold even dearer, like safety or the pursuit of happiness.  What you get in a world of 7.5 billion people is awfully complex because if even 1% of those 7.5B are people who are impediments to the happiness of others, that places 75 million people in that category. I completely respect your commitment to liberty -- in fact, your POV always makes me think deeper than I otherwise would -- but I always seem to end on the side of willingness to compromise liberty in the interest of what I see as greater good. 

So much of this issue is dependent on one's own experiences and how one processes his/her life experiences.  I have always felt a tremendous amount of "liberty" or freedom in my life.  I still (after nearly 60 years) feel as though I wake up every day with the ability to make choices about how to manage my day and my life (especially on the weekends).  I have felt that way throughout the experience of raising 2 daughters, a 30-year marriage, and 40 years of a career that has brought me a slightly higher than middle class life.   So much of this is about perception.  I see my experience as an American as being filled with liberties.  And I know that others don't see it that way.   So even though I remain open to the idea of limiting the sale of war-grade guns (and probably machetes and bayonets to go with the knife theme), I don't advocate for such things lightly.  I am open to it -- that doesn't mean I want to do it. Just means that if a comprehensive approach to making us safer from multi-victim terror attacks is actually put forward, I'll listen and if it sounds sensible and if the compromise of liberty seems acceptable to me, I'll probably be in favor. 


You and I don't always see eye to eye on things, but I respect your thought process.  Most importantly, because it seems like you actually have a thought process, and don't just succumb to blind emotion like I feel too many people do.  Your words are measured and thoughtful.

So I appreciate your thoughts here on this subject.  But to counter, while I do place individual liberty above all else, as in my opinion without it the right to life does not even exist, I also value safety and happiness.  But to be truly safe one must have the freedom to protect one's self, free from the dependence on others.  And to be truly happy, again, one must be free to live their life how they see fit.  But if I am not free to protect myself as I see fit, then I am not being allowed to life my life as I see fit, therefore complete happiness will never be achievable.

It is for these reasons, among others, I am just very rarely ever willing to sacrifice freedoms.  And while I do realize living in a society requires compromise, I personally feel like there has already been too much compromise and erosion of freedoms in this world.  Too many people desire to tell other how they should be living their lives, and what conditions they must adhere to be apart of society.  I find that all a bit distressing.

I just wanted to highlight that it is often seen by some as sacrificing liberty for security, which some are willing to do. However, things like banning weapons do not guarantee safety and security. They simply shift the responsibility for your safety and security to governing bodies at the cost of liberty. When you also factor in the questionable effectiveness of these types of actions, the sacrifice becomes harder to bear for those who understand this.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #548 on: April 12, 2018, 01:53:46 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #549 on: April 22, 2018, 05:15:20 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Authorities say the suspect in a deadly shooting at a restaurant in Nashville was arrested last year by the U.S. Secret Service for being in a restricted area near the White House.

Metro Nashville Police Department spokesman Don Aaron said 29-year-old Travis Reinking's firearms authorization was then revoked at the request of the FBI, and four weapons were seized, including the AR15 that he allegedly used in the shooting at the Waffle House restaurant early Sunday. Four people were killed.

Aaron says the four guns were returned to the suspect's father, who acknowledged giving them back to his son.


This guy’s father should be prosecuted to the maximum amount allowed. I suspect it will be a slap on the wrist or less.


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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #550 on: April 22, 2018, 05:35:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Authorities say the suspect in a deadly shooting at a restaurant in Nashville was arrested last year by the U.S. Secret Service for being in a restricted area near the White House.

Metro Nashville Police Department spokesman Don Aaron said 29-year-old Travis Reinking's firearms authorization was then revoked at the request of the FBI, and four weapons were seized, including the AR15 that he allegedly used in the shooting at the Waffle House restaurant early Sunday. Four people were killed.

Aaron says the four guns were returned to the suspect's father, who acknowledged giving them back to his son.


This guy’s father should be prosecuted to the maximum amount allowed. I suspect it will be a slap on the wrist or less.
If the guns were the suspect's why were they given to the father? I don't get that. Just confiscate and destroy the weapons, right?

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #551 on: April 22, 2018, 06:03:45 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Authorities say the suspect in a deadly shooting at a restaurant in Nashville was arrested last year by the U.S. Secret Service for being in a restricted area near the White House.

Metro Nashville Police Department spokesman Don Aaron said 29-year-old Travis Reinking's firearms authorization was then revoked at the request of the FBI, and four weapons were seized, including the AR15 that he allegedly used in the shooting at the Waffle House restaurant early Sunday. Four people were killed.

Aaron says the four guns were returned to the suspect's father, who acknowledged giving them back to his son.


This guy’s father should be prosecuted to the maximum amount allowed. I suspect it will be a slap on the wrist or less.
If the guns were the suspect's why were they given to the father? I don't get that. Just confiscate and destroy the weapons, right?

That's a good question. I am confused by this and am curious about what statutes might say with regard to the right of autorities to seize property that was not illegally purchased or obtained and is not an illegal item (drugs...).   I wonder if the law is fuzzy on this.   Does taking the "authorization" away from the owner mean that the owner no longer has a right to own the weapon or does it mean he has no authorization to possess (or carry) the weapon?  Maybe the law is weak leading police to fear that they don't have a strong legal standing to seize permanent ownership of the weapons -- therefore, they give the weapons back to "responsible" relatives.


Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #552 on: April 22, 2018, 06:38:13 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Apparently the father "promised" authorities not to give the guns back to his son. So someone is found not fit to have firearms, his authorization to have fire arms is revoked but the FBI gave the father of the person back the guns on a "promise" not to give the guns back to his son?

First, I hope they find something to charge the father with. Second, why did the FBI give the guns to the father based on a promise not to give them back to the son? Did the FBI have any legal recourse to keep the guns? Were the guns dually owned? What happened there?

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #553 on: April 22, 2018, 07:54:48 PM »

Online liam

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Apparently the father "promised" authorities not to give the guns back to his son. So someone is found not fit to have firearms, his authorization to have fire arms is revoked but the FBI gave the father of the person back the guns on a "promise" not to give the guns back to his son?

First, I hope they find something to charge the father with. Second, why did the FBI give the guns to the father based on a promise not to give them back to the son? Did the FBI have any legal recourse to keep the guns? Were the guns dually owned? What happened there?

The FBI was more concerned about protecting the guns that human lives.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #554 on: April 22, 2018, 09:07:15 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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It amazes me that the Parkland students can object strongly to clear backpacks because they violate their “rights” and will have little effect, while advocating for gun control.

Either personal liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good, or they don’t.  The fact that there’s so little recognition of the “liberty vs. safety” debate is sad.  It just shows that many of the “activists” haven’t thought through their positions fully, at least from a principled standpoint.

All the clear backpacks in the world wouldn't have stopped the Parkland shooter... He wasn't a student at the school.  He had a dufflebag with an AR-15 in it, walked into the school and started shooting.

You probably don't know this, but he killed 18 people at the school.  That probably has more to do with why the students are upset about getting clear backpacks instead of meaningful change that would prevent another mass shooting.