Author Topic: Gun Control?  (Read 19824 times)

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2018, 08:51:24 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Or maybe American Government license guns with stricter examination and procedures. Do a character inspection, psychological test and gun simulations before giving away gun licenses. Worked well for countries like Japan.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2018, 08:53:26 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Two points

On registry of all gunowners/guns:  And who registers the guns of gangs and criminals? SMH

The law? If they break the law, arrest them.

I mean, do we refuse to collect taxes because some criminals work under the table?

If a cop sees someone with a gun they will have the right to ask for their registration card and if they don't have one, impound the gun and arrest the person with the gun.

Are you referring to a CCW permit because having your gun registered is definitely not the same thing? I'm not in Massachusetts, so don't know about the open carry law there, but "concealed" is the key word with CCW.
I think Roy is talking about the hypothetical case where there is a national firearm registry.

That won't help. The law abiding citizens will do it, but that doesn't help fix the problem. Buying a gun is really easy to do. It's not uncommon for firearms to be rented out on the streets. You can only imagine how many bodies these rentals have behind them.

And yet, almost all of the guns used in mass shootings were purchased legally.

If we as a society want to restrict guns from dangerous people - criminals, batterers, schizophrenics - then there needs to be a mechanism to keep track of weapons.

Right and ATF can trace them back to their location of purchase, so despite this the problem still persists.

There’s no coordinated system or central database. 

For instance, felons and batterers can’t own guns in Maine. Yet, other than self-compliance, there’s zero way to know what guns these people own or what they’ve done with them.

That seems like a problem, doesn’t it?

But that's the point, only law abiding citizens will comply. A convicted felon in possession would be a charge in itself. You would only regulate those that have nothing to hide, which doesn't solve the issue.

I could easily envision a bunch of false burglary reports being generated by owners of firearms, subsequently convicted of a felony, as a means to not relinquish their registered firearm.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 08:55:46 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Two points

On registry of all gunowners/guns:  And who registers the guns of gangs and criminals? SMH

The law? If they break the law, arrest them.

I mean, do we refuse to collect taxes because some criminals work under the table?

If a cop sees someone with a gun they will have the right to ask for their registration card and if they don't have one, impound the gun and arrest the person with the gun.

Are you referring to a CCW permit because having your gun registered is definitely not the same thing? I'm not in Massachusetts, so don't know about the open carry law there, but "concealed" is the key word with CCW.
I think Roy is talking about the hypothetical case where there is a national firearm registry.

That won't help. The law abiding citizens will do it, but that doesn't help fix the problem. Buying a gun is really easy to do. It's not uncommon for firearms to be rented out on the streets. You can only imagine how many bodies these rentals have behind them.

And yet, almost all of the guns used in mass shootings were purchased legally.

If we as a society want to restrict guns from dangerous people - criminals, batterers, schizophrenics - then there needs to be a mechanism to keep track of weapons.

Right and ATF can trace them back to their location of purchase, so despite this the problem still persists.

There’s no coordinated system or central database. 

For instance, felons and batterers can’t own guns in Maine. Yet, other than self-compliance, there’s zero way to know what guns these people own or what they’ve done with them.

That seems like a problem, doesn’t it?

But that's the point, only law abiding citizens will comply. A convicted felon in possession would be a charge in itself. You would only regulate those that have nothing to hide, which doesn't solve the issue.

And yet, it's a fairly effective component of public policy in just about everything else, but magically, it couldn't possibly work for guns.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2018, 08:56:31 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Two points

On registry of all gunowners/guns:  And who registers the guns of gangs and criminals? SMH

The law? If they break the law, arrest them.

I mean, do we refuse to collect taxes because some criminals work under the table?

If a cop sees someone with a gun they will have the right to ask for their registration card and if they don't have one, impound the gun and arrest the person with the gun.

Are you referring to a CCW permit because having your gun registered is definitely not the same thing? I'm not in Massachusetts, so don't know about the open carry law there, but "concealed" is the key word with CCW.
I think Roy is talking about the hypothetical case where there is a national firearm registry.

That won't help. The law abiding citizens will do it, but that doesn't help fix the problem. Buying a gun is really easy to do. It's not uncommon for firearms to be rented out on the streets. You can only imagine how many bodies these rentals have behind them.

And yet, almost all of the guns used in mass shootings were purchased legally.

If we as a society want to restrict guns from dangerous people - criminals, batterers, schizophrenics - then there needs to be a mechanism to keep track of weapons.

Right and ATF can trace them back to their location of purchase, so despite this the problem still persists.

There’s no coordinated system or central database. 

For instance, felons and batterers can’t own guns in Maine. Yet, other than self-compliance, there’s zero way to know what guns these people own or what they’ve done with them.

That seems like a problem, doesn’t it?

Police will come knocking on your door if you stockpile too much Sudafed...but shooters can stockpile multiple guns and too much ammo to use without any flags getting tripped.

I got my first red flag the other day for attempting to buy too much cough syrup in the wrong combination. I’m probably on a registry somewhere.

But, you’re right: I can go down to the sporting goods store and buy an AR-15, a half-dozen handguns, a few 100 round drums / magazines, and 10,000 rounds of ammo.


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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2018, 09:11:15 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Two points

On registry of all gunowners/guns:  And who registers the guns of gangs and criminals? SMH

The law? If they break the law, arrest them.

I mean, do we refuse to collect taxes because some criminals work under the table?

If a cop sees someone with a gun they will have the right to ask for their registration card and if they don't have one, impound the gun and arrest the person with the gun.

Are you referring to a CCW permit because having your gun registered is definitely not the same thing? I'm not in Massachusetts, so don't know about the open carry law there, but "concealed" is the key word with CCW.
I think Roy is talking about the hypothetical case where there is a national firearm registry.

That won't help. The law abiding citizens will do it, but that doesn't help fix the problem. Buying a gun is really easy to do. It's not uncommon for firearms to be rented out on the streets. You can only imagine how many bodies these rentals have behind them.

And yet, almost all of the guns used in mass shootings were purchased legally.

If we as a society want to restrict guns from dangerous people - criminals, batterers, schizophrenics - then there needs to be a mechanism to keep track of weapons.

Right and ATF can trace them back to their location of purchase, so despite this the problem still persists.

There’s no coordinated system or central database. 

For instance, felons and batterers can’t own guns in Maine. Yet, other than self-compliance, there’s zero way to know what guns these people own or what they’ve done with them.

That seems like a problem, doesn’t it?

Police will come knocking on your door if you stockpile too much Sudafed...but shooters can stockpile multiple guns and too much ammo to use without any flags getting tripped.

I got my first red flag the other day for attempting to buy too much cough syrup in the wrong combination. I’m probably on a registry somewhere.

But, you’re right: I can go down to the sporting goods store and buy an AR-15, a half-dozen handguns, a few 100 round drums / magazines, and 10,000 rounds of ammo.

In Florida

Yeah, on the AR after a background check. However, not the handgun. You'd have to wait 3 days for that.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2018, 09:29:47 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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I often see people who are against gun control laws, gun registries etc saying that it those things would be useless as only law abiding people would follow those laws.  I think that that is looking too narrowly at the problems we are facing.  Yes, stricter gun control laws and registries likely would have little to no effect on the "average street criminal" but these mass shooters are not your average street criminals.  These mass shooters motivation is different.  Crime is not a day-to-day way of life for them.  They are focused on one very vicious crime and they are getting their guns for that one purpose.  It seems as though few of them are acquiring guns in the same fashion as the average street criminal.  If there are a few more restrictions, if it takes a bit more time and effort it may have an effect on these type of criminals.  As a gun owner myself I say that if there is something that may stop just a minute percentage of these mass shootings it is something that must be considered.

We have a violence problem in this country and we have a gun problem in this country.  There are various reasons for both and many things that we should be looking at doing to curb the senseless violence.  Thoughts and prayers are not enough.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2018, 09:31:59 PM »

Offline Cman

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here's some approaches that I think deserve serious consideration (in no particular order):

1: Let the CDC study gun violence
(more here for those interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/)

2: Mandate the registration of guns (just like we register cars)

3: Ban certain types accessories or modifications to guns

4: Conduct some hearings (that is all I'm asking for, for crying out loud, a few hearings) on existing evidence on the link between certain laws/bans/etc and gun violence. I honestly think it is strange that for things like Russia's attempt to hack our elections, the role of AI in society, net neutrality (just to name a few) Congress conducts lots of public hearings. We have had hearings on gun violence, but very, very few. I think this would be a start, and would help keep people focused on the issue and start thinking through potential solutions (and the tradeoffs involved).

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2018, 09:35:01 PM »

Offline Cman

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I often see people who are against gun control laws, gun registries etc saying that it those things would be useless as only law abiding people would follow those laws.  I think that that is looking too narrowly at the problems we are facing.  Yes, stricter gun control laws and registries likely would have little to no effect on the "average street criminal" but these mass shooters are not your average street criminals.  These mass shooters motivation is different.  Crime is not a day-to-day way of life for them.  They are focus on one very vicious crime and they are getting their guns for that one purpose.  It seems as though few of them are acquiring guns in the same fashion as the average street criminal.  If there are a few more restrictions, if it takes a bit more time and effort it may have an effect on these type of criminals.  As a gun owner myself I say that if there is something that may stop just a minute percentage of these mass shootings it is something that must be considered.

We have a violence problem in this country and we have a gun problem in this country.  There are various reasons for both and many things that we should be looking at doing to curb the senseless violence.  Thoughts and prayers are not enough.

Yep.

Also, gun violence and domestic violence/ violence against women.

It's true that gun laws won't stop clever terrorists.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have gun laws.
They might stop mentally ill teens from committing heinous crimes.
They might stop violent husbands from the same.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2018, 09:42:09 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I often see people who are against gun control laws, gun registries etc saying that it those things would be useless as only law abiding people would follow those laws.  I think that that is looking too narrowly at the problems we are facing.  Yes, stricter gun control laws and registries likely would have little to no effect on the "average street criminal" but these mass shooters are not your average street criminals.  These mass shooters motivation is different.  Crime is not a day-to-day way of life for them.  They are focused on one very vicious crime and they are getting their guns for that one purpose.  It seems as though few of them are acquiring guns in the same fashion as the average street criminal.  If there are a few more restrictions, if it takes a bit more time and effort it may have an effect on these type of criminals.  As a gun owner myself I say that if there is something that may stop just a minute percentage of these mass shootings it is something that must be considered.

We have a violence problem in this country and we have a gun problem in this country.  There are various reasons for both and many things that we should be looking at doing to curb the senseless violence.  Thoughts and prayers are not enough.

Would Cruz, despite having to register his firearms, still have committed the same act? I think the answer is clearly "yes", so I'm not sure I see how him registering his AR would've prevented yesterday's tragedy. That said, I would love for all guns to be registered, but that doesn't mean the majority of these mass shootings would be prevented since they're being purchased lawfully by, at the time of purchase, law abiding citizens.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2018, 09:47:52 PM »

Offline liam

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here's some approaches that I think deserve serious consideration (in no particular order):

1: Let the CDC study gun violence
(more here for those interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/)

2: Mandate the registration of guns (just like we register cars)

3: Ban certain types accessories or modifications to guns

4: Conduct some hearings (that is all I'm asking for, for crying out loud, a few hearings) on existing evidence on the link between certain laws/bans/etc and gun violence. I honestly think it is strange that for things like Russia's attempt to hack our elections, the role of AI in society, net neutrality (just to name a few) Congress conducts lots of public hearings. We have had hearings on gun violence, but very, very few. I think this would be a start, and would help keep people focused on the issue and start thinking through potential solutions (and the tradeoffs involved).

Massachusetts has some of the strongest gun laws in the country and the lowest fatalities. Their is definitely a correlation.

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2018, 09:59:35 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I am a veteran who owns several guns, I believe in reasonable gun control.   People with mental illness have no business having guns.  Their rights should not trump public safety.  I don't know that I think that folks should have military grade weapons like an AR-15.   Hunting is very prevalent where I grew up but here in Ohio they make you use a shotgun to take deer.

We have a law like this in Ohio.
Quote
Weapon Under Disability
Ohio weapons under disability law forbid a person from having, trying to get, carrying or using a weapon if any of the following apply:

You’re a fugitive
You’re being indicted for a violent crime, you’ve been convicted of a violent crime or as a child you were convicted for what would be considered a violent felony if you had been an adult
You’re being indicted or have been convicted for a drug offense, either as an adult or a child
You’re a chronic alcoholic, drug dependent, or in danger of drug dependence
A judge has either deemed you mentally incompetent, mentally defective or mentally ill and subject to hospitalization, or you are or have been committed to a mental institution
Nearly every day in central Ohio people are charged with having weapons while under disability. Having weapons while under disability is a third degree felony punishable by up to 36 months in prison.

https://www.columbuscriminalattorney.com/weapons-crimes/weapon-under-disability/

Does MA have this?   I wonder if FLA does I doubt it.
I have a mental illness. I have participated in society without issue. I am a former business owner. I have no history of violence or anger management of any kind. Why should I be declined the use of a gun? Very few people with mental illness are homocidal. Like minute.

Having a mental illness can't be the only reason one shouldn't have a gun. It must be like the Ohio law.

Depends on the type. I wouldn't want someone who is bi-polar, schizophrenic, manic depressant, etc. to have one.
I am bipolar

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2018, 09:59:48 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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I often see people who are against gun control laws, gun registries etc saying that it those things would be useless as only law abiding people would follow those laws.  I think that that is looking too narrowly at the problems we are facing.  Yes, stricter gun control laws and registries likely would have little to no effect on the "average street criminal" but these mass shooters are not your average street criminals.  These mass shooters motivation is different.  Crime is not a day-to-day way of life for them.  They are focused on one very vicious crime and they are getting their guns for that one purpose.  It seems as though few of them are acquiring guns in the same fashion as the average street criminal.  If there are a few more restrictions, if it takes a bit more time and effort it may have an effect on these type of criminals.  As a gun owner myself I say that if there is something that may stop just a minute percentage of these mass shootings it is something that must be considered.

We have a violence problem in this country and we have a gun problem in this country.  There are various reasons for both and many things that we should be looking at doing to curb the senseless violence.  Thoughts and prayers are not enough.

Would Cruz, despite having to register his firearms, still have committed the same act? I think the answer is clearly "yes", so I'm not sure I see how him registering his AR would've prevented yesterday's tragedy. That said, I would love for all guns to be registered, but that doesn't mean the majority of these mass shootings would be prevented since they're being purchased lawfully by, at the time of purchase, law abiding citizens.
Maybe not but just because it may not have stopped this instance does not mean it would not have stopped another shooter.  This is a complex issue we are facing.  Many things should be considered and enacted in an effort to curb this violence.  Registires, stricter common sense gun control, limits on magazine size, eliminate bumpstocks, seriously increased punishment for any crime committed with a gun, more studies on mental illness, increased security at schools.  Not one of these things is the magical cure but all combined it should have some positive effect.
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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2018, 10:03:26 PM »

Offline liam

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Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2018, 01:55:18 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I am a veteran who owns several guns, I believe in reasonable gun control.   People with mental illness have no business having guns.  Their rights should not trump public safety.  I don't know that I think that folks should have military grade weapons like an AR-15.   Hunting is very prevalent where I grew up but here in Ohio they make you use a shotgun to take deer.

We have a law like this in Ohio.
Quote
Weapon Under Disability
Ohio weapons under disability law forbid a person from having, trying to get, carrying or using a weapon if any of the following apply:

You’re a fugitive
You’re being indicted for a violent crime, you’ve been convicted of a violent crime or as a child you were convicted for what would be considered a violent felony if you had been an adult
You’re being indicted or have been convicted for a drug offense, either as an adult or a child
You’re a chronic alcoholic, drug dependent, or in danger of drug dependence
A judge has either deemed you mentally incompetent, mentally defective or mentally ill and subject to hospitalization, or you are or have been committed to a mental institution
Nearly every day in central Ohio people are charged with having weapons while under disability. Having weapons while under disability is a third degree felony punishable by up to 36 months in prison.

https://www.columbuscriminalattorney.com/weapons-crimes/weapon-under-disability/

Does MA have this?   I wonder if FLA does I doubt it.
I have a mental illness. I have participated in society without issue. I am a former business owner. I have no history of violence or anger management of any kind. Why should I be declined the use of a gun? Very few people with mental illness are homocidal. Like minute.

Having a mental illness can't be the only reason one shouldn't have a gun. It must be like the Ohio law.

Depends on the type. I wouldn't want someone who is bi-polar, schizophrenic, manic depressant, etc. to have one.
I am bipolar

Not many people in your position, i.e., having bipolar disorder, are nearly as candid about such matters, so TP :).

As for gun control, don't worry, everyone, if the most popular Tweets are any guide as to our country's current subject(s) of attention/hot topic(s) ::) ;D, America has moved onto the real issues ::), like Jennifer Aniston separating from Canada's Prime Minister ;) ::) ;D. #BackToBrad

Re: Gun Control?
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2018, 03:20:28 AM »

Offline JSD

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It is disappointing to me that these situations are politized before the people who passed away are even buried. Psychotropic drugs seem to be a common denominator. Maybe it’s time to take a closer look at these drugs.

http://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/Another-Mass-Shooting-Potentially-Linked-to-Psychiatric-Drugs-1002085657