Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?

[Monkhouse]

Why can't we both agree, that we clearly need both?

[IDreamCeltics]

I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.

[GreenFaith1819]

I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.

James Harden would disagree.



Marcus Smart made not ONE but TWO game-winning plays against none other than James Harden.

These two plays ALONE decided our contest against HOU.

Marcus Smart impacts winning. I didn't say it, Coach Stevens did.

Whether it's a charge, a tipped pass, a key assist, a key bucket (rare I know but he does make them from time to time), a key stop....Marcus Smart makes things happen.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Yeah. Both players are important -- I refused to vote.

However, its hard to argue that Smart doesn't have an impact. Not only does he raise the energy level of the team when he is in the game (something that is simply not quantifiable by fans, but probably is with the player tracking cameras and teams), but he has single-handedly swung several games, including playoff games.

Those plays against Harden were great, but what about switching on to Milsap in the playoffs? What about his offensive outburst against the Cavs? There are other examples.

I like both players. I'm glad we, as Celtic fans, get to debate silly thoughts like this, while arguably we have 4 (maybe 5 depending on what you think of Rozier) other better scorers on the team.

[dreamgreen]

This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB!

[Ilikesports17]

This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB!

fixed.

[Ilikesports17]

I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.

James Harden would disagree.



Marcus Smart made not ONE but TWO game-winning plays against none other than James Harden.

These two plays ALONE decided our contest against HOU.

Marcus Smart impacts winning. I didn't say it, Coach Stevens did.

Whether it's a charge, a tipped pass, a key assist, a key bucket (rare I know but he does make them from time to time), a key stop....Marcus Smart makes things happen.

Those two charges were my favorite moments of this season.

[Ogaju]

Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this

OK, I'll tell you.

His contributions "on the court" are quite measurable, actually.

Despite Smart's poor shooting percentages, the team overall shoots (.512 vs. .517) and scores (107.1 vs 107.7) at about the same rates with him on the court as off the court.

What this means, since he has such bad percentages, is that everyone else actually shoots better with him on the court than when he's not on the court.

And then, our opponents shoot and score at significantly lower rates with him on the court. This is well known.

See? Perfectly measurable. He's a great player who makes the Celtics better when he's on the court. That is LITERALLY what on-court/off-court numbers tell you.

It's ridiculous to argue that he should be sent to the G league because of his shooting percentages. Those numbers obviously don't capture his value, as most people around here seem to understand.

And for you to raise that straw man just means you really don't understand how to use objective data to assess player value. I guess that's why you choose to ignore it.

So which side are you on here? Triboy or Byennie?

[Ogaju]

This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB!

fixed.

actually that does not fix his post. His post pits the poll participants against each other, not against NBA GMs.

[tarheelsxxiii]

This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB!

fixed.

actually that does not fix his post. His post pits the poll participants against each other, not against NBA GMs.

I bet several posters here would succeed as GMs.  Players have labeled us a 'special' fanbase for a reason.

[Boris Badenov]

Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this

OK, I'll tell you.

His contributions "on the court" are quite measurable, actually.

Despite Smart's poor shooting percentages, the team overall shoots (.512 vs. .517) and scores (107.1 vs 107.7) at about the same rates with him on the court as off the court.

What this means, since he has such bad percentages, is that everyone else actually shoots better with him on the court than when he's not on the court.

And then, our opponents shoot and score at significantly lower rates with him on the court. This is well known.

See? Perfectly measurable. He's a great player who makes the Celtics better when he's on the court. That is LITERALLY what on-court/off-court numbers tell you.

It's ridiculous to argue that he should be sent to the G league because of his shooting percentages. Those numbers obviously don't capture his value, as most people around here seem to understand.

And for you to raise that straw man just means you really don't understand how to use objective data to assess player value. I guess that's why you choose to ignore it.

So which side are you on here? Triboy or Byennie?

Oh. I see now that my post mis-attributed that quote to byennie. It was Triboy's.

This is what byennie said:

Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

But as I hope is clear, I really love Smart. But all those same measures Horford look even better. and he's an All-Star if you prefer non-statistical evaluations. He's the straw that stirs the drink, offensively.

And as he displayed against Blake Griffin, he's one of the smartest defenders in the league. He was the equivalent of a great cornerback who jumps every receiver's route before they even run it. He was where Griffin wanted to be a second before Griffin even made his move.

[Celtics4ever]

I voted for Horford before those stats but I feel vindicated.

[SparzWizard]

Where the trade Al Horford peeps at now.

Double-double with 13/10!

[GRADYCOLNON]

Offensive value aside, there is a clear disconnect between the type of defense value each of these guys brings to the table. 

Horford is more important because he defends for the team.  He has to deal with Irving's lapse, Brown and Tatum's lapse.  In general, he is the last line of defense.  He is the little Dutch boy with his finger in the [dang].  The value he provides is extremely valuable. 

Smart's value is different.  He can lock down players, switch positions; he's basically a swiss army knife.  He basically makes Horford's job easier and brings energy to the defense. 

Overall, Horford's role is more vital to the defense's success (he plays a position that gets the statistical props for his job.  This is the reason why he has tremendous stats). The only caveat is Horford is more replaceable than Smart.  Plenty of guys in the league do what Horford does on defense.  The same cannot be said for Smart.  What Smart brings to our team is unique. 

This is why it is difficult to compare importance.  Factoring in Horford's defense could and Smart's couldn't be replaced, it changes the entire comparison.  One could argue for either side depending on what they think is more valuable.  I contest we need both of these roles to be successful in this league and it isn't prudent to isolate them as their greatest value is together.

[KGs Knee]

Both players are important, there's no denying that.

But Horford is clearly more important. Just about every statistical measure backs that up. Any claim otherwise is just nonsense.