Celtics need to change starters

[JHTruth]

We have been giving up a lot of points.  I don't understand it.

In terms of the OP suggested changes, it is Smart over Brown, Morris over Tatum, and Monroe over Baynes.  I am not necessarily opposed to any of the changes but I doubt we would do them all at once.  I think Smart likes to come off the bench (and tends to be in there at the end) and Monroe should be starting but he does not appear quite ready yet.

So let's start by putting in Morris for Tatum.  He is a better defender and doesn't give up that much as a scorer compared to Tatum.  My second choice would be to start Marcus and slide Brown to SF.  I do agree that bringing Tatum off the bench in some combination is the right idea.

Why is it hard to understand?  Boston is a young team with very few truly good defenders.  I mean really only Horford and Smart are consistently good defenders, while others like Morris and Brown show flashes they aren't consistent (in the case of Morris he never has been and Brown is just young).  The team that was 22-4 is not the actual level of this team.  That team was playing well above their actual skill level all at the same time.  It wasn't sustainable because it just isn't good enough.  I got a lot of flack for taking that position on this board because I felt so many had these unrealistic expectations as a result of that hot start and the expectations really needed to be tempered (and frankly still do by a lot of people, though a lot less than before).  Boston, without Hayward, is a mid-tier playoff team.  Without Hayward and Smart, Boston is a lower tier playoff team.  That is sadly just the reality of this team.

I don't understand where the defense went.  They were a scrappy defensive team during the 22-4 run.  Now they aren't.  Where did that go?  They should be more consistent, even when Smart is injured.

I do understand that Horford was not going to hit 50% 3s all season and that Brown and Tatum would hit a wall at some point.  I understand scoring lulls and teams zeroing in on weaknesses of Brown and Tatum.  But I don't understand where the scrappy defense went.

it was an unsustainable level of play brought on mostly by the insane offense which created a higher than normal energy level which fueled the offense.  Think about this way, how many players on this team are good defenders.  There just aren't enough of those players to keep this team as a top tier defense.  They just aren't good enough individually

They played their behinds off all around at the beginning of the year. Guys like Baynes are not all-world defenders on a night-by-night basis. They were just possessed demons for about 30 games and they predictably started to fall of a cliff to regress to their mean. It's a long season, that's why you need some interior offense to anchor your offense.

I mean we all say Baynes bent over clutching his shorts after like a min in the second half right? He's toasted, along with plenty of others..

I buy that theory for offense; shooting and scoring, as every shot is a percentage so shooting does revert to a statistical mean after a period of being "hot".  I do not buy that theory for playing defense.  If the problem is that they are not able to sustain a level of effort, to me, that is a coaching problem. 

There is no reason, for example, that the team did not display maximum defensive effort last night against the Clippers.  They need a win and they get most of a week to rest afterwards.  There is no reverting to a statistical mean here.  They just weren't scrappy enough against a team that really isn't that good.

I don't expect that any team can sustain maximum effort for every game for an entire season (although the 2007-8 Celtics was an exception) but this has been going on for a while.  It is at risk of becoming the new normal.  The coach and team leaders are not supposed to let that happen.

I hear you, but we have to understand the level of energy these guys were exerting. Baynes'  DBPM is still double what his high was for any previous year of his career. Predictably, his OBPM is waaaaaaaaaay worse than any of his previous years. We're talking about a career back-up who started out exerting himself to the max in a starting role. I'm picking on AB but look at the increased role for guys like Brown, even Irving who is at a career high in DBPM.

[Moranis]

We have been giving up a lot of points.  I don't understand it.

In terms of the OP suggested changes, it is Smart over Brown, Morris over Tatum, and Monroe over Baynes.  I am not necessarily opposed to any of the changes but I doubt we would do them all at once.  I think Smart likes to come off the bench (and tends to be in there at the end) and Monroe should be starting but he does not appear quite ready yet.

So let's start by putting in Morris for Tatum.  He is a better defender and doesn't give up that much as a scorer compared to Tatum.  My second choice would be to start Marcus and slide Brown to SF.  I do agree that bringing Tatum off the bench in some combination is the right idea.

Why is it hard to understand?  Boston is a young team with very few truly good defenders.  I mean really only Horford and Smart are consistently good defenders, while others like Morris and Brown show flashes they aren't consistent (in the case of Morris he never has been and Brown is just young).  The team that was 22-4 is not the actual level of this team.  That team was playing well above their actual skill level all at the same time.  It wasn't sustainable because it just isn't good enough.  I got a lot of flack for taking that position on this board because I felt so many had these unrealistic expectations as a result of that hot start and the expectations really needed to be tempered (and frankly still do by a lot of people, though a lot less than before).  Boston, without Hayward, is a mid-tier playoff team.  Without Hayward and Smart, Boston is a lower tier playoff team.  That is sadly just the reality of this team.

I don't understand where the defense went.  They were a scrappy defensive team during the 22-4 run.  Now they aren't.  Where did that go?  They should be more consistent, even when Smart is injured.

I do understand that Horford was not going to hit 50% 3s all season and that Brown and Tatum would hit a wall at some point.  I understand scoring lulls and teams zeroing in on weaknesses of Brown and Tatum.  But I don't understand where the scrappy defense went.

it was an unsustainable level of play brought on mostly by the insane offense which created a higher than normal energy level which fueled the offense.  Think about this way, how many players on this team are good defenders.  There just aren't enough of those players to keep this team as a top tier defense.  They just aren't good enough individually

They played their behinds off all around at the beginning of the year. Guys like Baynes are not all-world defenders on a night-by-night basis. They were just possessed demons for about 30 games and they predictably started to fall of a cliff to regress to their mean. It's a long season, that's why you need some interior offense to anchor your offense.

I mean we all say Baynes bent over clutching his shorts after like a min in the second half right? He's toasted, along with plenty of others..

I buy that theory for offense; shooting and scoring, as every shot is a percentage so shooting does revert to a statistical mean after a period of being "hot".  I do not buy that theory for playing defense.  If the problem is that they are not able to sustain a level of effort, to me, that is a coaching problem. 

There is no reason, for example, that the team did not display maximum defensive effort last night against the Clippers.  They need a win and they get most of a week to rest afterwards.  There is no reverting to a statistical mean here.  They just weren't scrappy enough against a team that really isn't that good.

I don't expect that any team can sustain maximum effort for every game for an entire season (although the 2007-8 Celtics was an exception) but this has been going on for a while.  It is at risk of becoming the new normal.  The coach and team leaders are not supposed to let that happen.

Defense, just like offense, feeds off of energy.  Boston was playing out of their minds the first 26 games.  It wasn't sustainable at either end of the floor.

Again, I ask you, how many plus defenders are on this team?  If you are being honest it is less than 5 and 2 of those guys aren't consistent (Morris and Brown).  You can't have the #1 defense if only 4 of your players are plus defenders.  It just isn't sustainable. 

[KGBirdBias]

We have been giving up a lot of points.  I don't understand it.

In terms of the OP suggested changes, it is Smart over Brown, Morris over Tatum, and Monroe over Baynes.  I am not necessarily opposed to any of the changes but I doubt we would do them all at once.  I think Smart likes to come off the bench (and tends to be in there at the end) and Monroe should be starting but he does not appear quite ready yet.

So let's start by putting in Morris for Tatum.  He is a better defender and doesn't give up that much as a scorer compared to Tatum.  My second choice would be to start Marcus and slide Brown to SF.  I do agree that bringing Tatum off the bench in some combination is the right idea.

Why is it hard to understand?  Boston is a young team with very few truly good defenders.  I mean really only Horford and Smart are consistently good defenders, while others like Morris and Brown show flashes they aren't consistent (in the case of Morris he never has been and Brown is just young).  The team that was 22-4 is not the actual level of this team.  That team was playing well above their actual skill level all at the same time.  It wasn't sustainable because it just isn't good enough.  I got a lot of flack for taking that position on this board because I felt so many had these unrealistic expectations as a result of that hot start and the expectations really needed to be tempered (and frankly still do by a lot of people, though a lot less than before).  Boston, without Hayward, is a mid-tier playoff team.  Without Hayward and Smart, Boston is a lower tier playoff team.  That is sadly just the reality of this team.

I don't understand where the defense went.  They were a scrappy defensive team during the 22-4 run.  Now they aren't.  Where did that go?  They should be more consistent, even when Smart is injured.

I do understand that Horford was not going to hit 50% 3s all season and that Brown and Tatum would hit a wall at some point.  I understand scoring lulls and teams zeroing in on weaknesses of Brown and Tatum.  But I don't understand where the scrappy defense went.

Exactly. People keep saying "we were never as good as our record". However, if you've done it and lost it, that means you should be able to get it back. It's not like they haven't proven they can play better.

Either
1-They have dead legs
2-Teams have scouted them
3-Players roles may be too big at this point
4-Tuning out Stevens (I highly doubt it's this one)

I still point to the style and makeup of our leaders...Kyrie and Horford. Their demeanor is laid back, not as vocal or fiery and the team starts to take on that identity.

[More Banners]

Only thing I can see would be to start Morris over Baynes to get more offense to start the game.  And I'm not sure that helps us. But I do think to win these days you need an offense of threat at every position, and Marcus Morris is a bigger offensive threat.

 As young as Tatum and brown or if it makes sense to have three veterans starting around them so they can fill in when they have opportunity I don't have to force it. I think they would just have to increase the pace

[KGBirdBias]

Bigs have killed us this year. So playing small is working against us. Anytime DJ can go for 30/13 we have problems on our frontline.

Could we get away with playing big for stretches in the game? It's risky but I'm thinking
Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Theis, Monroe

If Stevens allowed Horford to play in essence PG last week, can he get away with playing SF a for minutes. Tatum can definately play the SG spot because his handles are better than Brown's anyway. I've never liked Brown as the SG and Tatum as SF...it should be switched based on shooting and ballhandling. Just my opinion.

[keevsnick]

Words cannot describe how much I disagree with this idea. Tatum and Brown are better than Morris and smart, start your best players. Even if you don't agree with that premise (Note: you are wrong), the moment Hayward went down this year became about developing Tatum and Brown. Let them work through their struggles.

[cltc5]

My starting 5:

Monroe
Horford
Morris
Tatum
Irving.  That's a nice big lineup with a sg that can actually know down the 3.

Bench:

Baynes
Theis
Brown
Rozier
Smart.  A smaller lineup with a bigger center and Jaylen at a position where he can create and rozier at a position where he can knock down the 3 like he's been doing

[keevsnick]

Bigs have killed us this year. So playing small is working against us. Anytime DJ can go for 30/13 we have problems on our frontline.

Could we get away with playing big for stretches in the game? It's risky but I'm thinking
Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Theis, Monroe

If Stevens allowed Horford to play in essence PG last week, can he get away with playing SF a for minutes. Tatum can definately play the SG spot because his handles are better than Brown's anyway. I've never liked Brown as the SG and Tatum as SF...it should be switched based on shooting and ballhandling. Just my opinion.

Not sure I agree that Tatum has better handle then Brown, he's been losing the ball routinely on his drives the last two months whereas i think brown has umprived alot in his ball handling. Tatum also can't pass to save his life right now. In any event offensively it doesn't matter, they play the same Brad Stevens position of wing, and defensively Brown is clearly the SG as Tatum doesn't stick well with quick printer guards.

[OHCeltic]

Tatum and Brown need to just dribble and stop trying to be Irving. Both of them get in trouble when they dribble to much.

[liam]

Tatum and Brown need to just dribble and stop trying to be Irving. Both of them get in trouble when they dribble to much.

I agree but part of Tatum's problem on the dribble drive is that players are just fouling him with no call being made. He's getting slapped on the arms over and over with no calls. It happened more than once last night.

[KGBirdBias]

Tatum handles the ball better than Brown. Brown has a loose handle and is a straight line dribbler. Tatum needs to stop bringing the ball down so much and needs to finish stronger. However in the open floor and on the wing, we haven't seen Tatum's entire package yet because he doesn't handle it enough.

In my opinion I just think Tatum would be a better SG for this team....aka Reggie Miller. In terms of length, escape dribbles and getting to the rim.