Author Topic: Stevens' system and big men  (Read 1249 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stevens' system and big men
« on: February 12, 2018, 04:18:22 PM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8171
  • Tommy Points: 885
I love Stevens, but I don't think's above reproach. Especially when it comes to bigs. Perhaps the problem is that at Butler he never had any good big men, so his offense was predicated on perimeter oriented attack based off ball movement and shooting a lot of 3's (basically living and dying by the 3). So unless you're like Horford who combines 3 PT shooting with really good passing and can thrive playing on the perimeter, then you may not be the best fit for Stevens' scheme.

Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.

Olynyk
Contrary to popular belief he was actually a pretty good post player in college, but that part of the game wasn't used in the pros. I won't harp on this too much since Olynyk is better suited on the perimeter, but Stevens did say something along the lines of wishing he had used him the way Spolestra is.

Baynes
He seems to want Baynes to start shooting 3's too. This season he's shot 9 so far (all misses), while only attempting 7 in his first 5 seasons combined (1 make). I just don't see this as Baynes' game, preferring that he plays to his strength and be in position to attack the glass to grab offensive rebounds, and it's more of a round hole / square peg approach.

Monroe
Far and away the best post player Stevens' has ever coached, but through 3 games (14 MPG) I do have my concerns about how he'll use him going forward. It just doesn't seem as though he's going to be a good fit in his system.


So is his system suited for bigs? Is he able to adapt based on personnel? Will he continue to play small ball for the sake of playing small, even though we have better bigs than we do wings?

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 04:32:22 PM »

Offline JHTruth

  • NCE
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2255
  • Tommy Points: 108
You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.

I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16151
  • Tommy Points: 1042
Quote
Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.

Excellent?   I think your memory is faulty.   He was a solid rebounder, he had a decent mid-range even though his FG% were not solid for a PF.   None of this matter in the long because  his D was poor and he had conditioning issues through out his tenure here and trouble maintaining his weight.   Classic case of a guy who played because we had no one better.

0-3      3-10   10-16   16 <3   3P
.667     .302       .533           .360      .200

 https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sullija01.html

Are you not aware that league wide the mid-range is considered a poor shot by many these days.   The game has changed from the pound it in the post days of yore.

https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/pgj338/numbers-game-how-spatial-analytics-killed-the-mid-range-jump-shot

It was not just CBS, either.

I personally, like post players and the mid range and think they still have a spot in the game, at least they a more fun to watch than guys chucking threes and missing them.

Olynyk was soft at times, and played hard at others.

CBS did not have bigs in college that were dominant.   He had Matt Howard:

https://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2011-04-01/final-four-profile-butlers-matt-howard

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 04:57:30 PM »

Offline Green-18

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 594
  • Tommy Points: 55
You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.

I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.

I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams.  Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor.  I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.   

Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season.  A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter.  He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder.  Not much defense but that's okay. 



Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 05:03:57 PM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 35576
  • Tommy Points: -27755
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Horford thrives under Stevens. 

Otherwise, CBS is a reflection of the modern NBA. Big men need to be mobile and need to pass and/or shoot. Passing in particular is important for us.


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 05:26:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17154
  • Tommy Points: 1547
Horford thrives under Stevens. 

Otherwise, CBS is a reflection of the modern NBA. Big men need to be mobile and need to pass and/or shoot. Passing in particular is important for us.

The ability to operate an effective dribble handoff might be the most important skill for big men in Brad's system.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 05:42:02 PM »

Offline JHTruth

  • NCE
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2255
  • Tommy Points: 108
You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.

I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.

I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams.  Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor.  I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.   

Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season.  A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter.  He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder.  Not much defense but that's okay.

GS and Hou are two teams in the league. Before we even get there, we will need to face Jonas V, Polish Hammer, TT, etc. These are big strong guys who can score. Simple fact is we are not a complete team as it stands we are a 3-pt jacking team that is right now on track to make zero noise in the playoffs..

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 10:31:26 PM »

Offline chiken Green

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 596
  • Tommy Points: 74
You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.

I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.

I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams.  Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor.  I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.   

Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season.  A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter.  He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder.  Not much defense but that's okay.

GS and Hou are two teams in the league. Before we even get there, we will need to face Jonas V, Polish Hammer, TT, etc. These are big strong guys who can score. Simple fact is we are not a complete team as it stands we are a 3-pt jacking team that is right now on track to make zero noise in the playoffs..

When we were blown out by Toronto  JV had 2 points.. They as a team shot 36 3's against us. (we only attempted 23)
Cleveland (TT) an The WIZ are  top 10 in 3 point shots..
TT had 6 points vs us  The Polish Hammer had 10..

Those big strong guys are not beating us.. Teams are out gunning us from the 3..

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 10:40:59 PM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8171
  • Tommy Points: 885
10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 12:36:01 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5147
  • Tommy Points: 344
10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team.  Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I知 sure he can guard his man just fine but he値l onky use that like 10% of the time.  He値l be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.

I think as the season goes he値l find himself completely out of the lineup actually.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 12:45:34 AM »

Offline trickybilly

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
  • Tommy Points: 374
Quote
Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.

Excellent?   I think your memory is faulty.   He was a solid rebounder, he had a decent mid-range even though his FG% were not solid for a PF.   None of this matter in the long because  his D was poor and he had conditioning issues through out his tenure here and trouble maintaining his weight.   Classic case of a guy who played because we had no one better.

0-3      3-10   10-16   16 <3   3P
.667     .302       .533           .360      .200

 https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sullija01.html

Are you not aware that league wide the mid-range is considered a poor shot by many these days.   The game has changed from the pound it in the post days of yore.

https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/pgj338/numbers-game-how-spatial-analytics-killed-the-mid-range-jump-shot

It was not just CBS, either.

I personally, like post players and the mid range and think they still have a spot in the game, at least they a more fun to watch than guys chucking threes and missing them.

Olynyk was soft at times, and played hard at others.

CBS did not have bigs in college that were dominant.   He had Matt Howard:

https://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2011-04-01/final-four-profile-butlers-matt-howard

Sullly put up 40, 31, and 8 today in CHINA!
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 12:56:27 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3741
  • Tommy Points: 61
10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team.  Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I知 sure he can guard his man just fine but he値l onky use that like 10% of the time.  He値l be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.

I think as the season goes he値l find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
This just isn稚 true. His mobility is no worse than Baynes really, and he痴 less foul prone. He痴 also already the best rebounder on this team.

If he痴 out of the rotation by the end of the year then Brad has truly lost his mind in pursuit of 都witchability even when it kills us week in week out

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2018, 01:02:36 AM »

Offline Atzar

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4218
  • Tommy Points: 724
10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team.  Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I知 sure he can guard his man just fine but he値l onky use that like 10% of the time.  He値l be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.

I think as the season goes he値l find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
This just isn稚 true. His mobility is no worse than Baynes really, and he痴 less foul prone. He痴 also already the best rebounder on this team.

If he痴 out of the rotation by the end of the year then Brad has truly lost his mind in pursuit of 都witchability even when it kills us week in week out

Baynes is significantly quicker and more intelligent on defense from what I致e seen.

Monroe actually has good hands, but that痴 the only positive thing I値l say about his defensive ability.  There just isn稚 much to hope for on that end of the court.  Acclimation with the team might lift him from disastrous to bad, but it痴 unlikely that he truly jells in 30 games.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 01:04:29 AM »

Offline Chris22

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4238
  • Tommy Points: 377
Morris and Monroe are too slow.
We played better without them.

Re: Stevens' system and big men
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 01:25:27 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8304
  • Tommy Points: 889
  • Mr. Emoji
is like trying to mix oil and water.