Author Topic: Retire KG's jersey?  (Read 4331 times)

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Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2018, 04:53:53 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Ray Allen played in 91 playoff games for the Celtics.  Kevin Garnett played in 84 playoff games for the Celtics.  Garnett played in 38 more regular season games than Allen did, however Allen actually played more regular season minutes than Garnett despite playing in less games. 

If you look at advanced metrics like GmSc, Allen was the best player on the floor during the 08 NBA Finals (Allen was 16.7, Kobe was 16.4, and Pierce was 15.6).  Allen led the team in minutes and had an absolutely insane TS% of 70.8.  His ORtg was 129 and he had the same DRtg as Pierce at 106 (Pierce's ORtg was 112).  KG was 99 for both.  I think people forget just how good Allen was in that series.  Pierce won the Finals MVP with that epic game 5 performance (as well as being Mr. Celtic), but Allen just as easily could have won it as he didn't have any god awful games like Pierce did in game 3. 

I just don't see how you can realistically separate Garnett from Allen in this debate.  Either they should both go up or neither should.  I'm of the belief neither should as I don't think either played long enough in Boston to have earned the highest honor a team can give a player.

Are you serious with this?

If you really want to delve into advanced statistics, we can do that. But those generally donít provide much over a 6-game stretch. Want to use the entire 2008 playoffs? You can pick and choose which stat(s) and narrow it down to just the Finals, but Ray had a number of duds (scoreless in game 1 and 4 point stinker in game 7 of ECSF). We probably beat Cleveland and Detroit despite Ray.

Letís not even talk about the 2010 Finals, the one where he couldnít hit a three in 4 of the 7 games and shot 3-14 in the decisive game 7.

I donít think even you believe Allen was nearly as good as KG was. Not in 2008, actually not ever in their careers anywhere. BUT, even if you did, that doesnít mean they have to retire his number if they retire Kevinís. They donít HAVE to retire anyoneís. They get to choose. And relationships matter. He walked away. He was offered more money and a NTC for a lesser role with our rival. He burned this bridge, not Danny.
Danny traded Ray Allen.  Let's not conveniently forget that small fact.  Memphis backed out after Danny had already told Allen the trade was done.  A lesser role?  Doc had already sent Allen to the bench.  He was going to have the exact same role on each team i.e. first guard off the bench, only difference is, one team was a contender that hadn't stabbed him in the back, the other one was not a contender that betrayed him the season before.

Backing up a young guard like Bradley is the same role as backing up perennial All-Star Wade? As long as he was in Boston, he would always be part of the Big Three, even if his role diminished more than the other two.

In Miami, he was nothing more than a hired (cheap) gun to spread the floor. Nobody really cared about him there, he was an afterthought.

Danny traded everybody. Heís the only one (and I guess now IT) that got so butthurt about it. Yet every one of them, Isaiah included, talks glowingly about the organization. Every time Ray brings up the Celtics, heís defending himself. He lives with guilt, not Danny, not Wyc and co., and not us fans.

He could have built a lasting legacy here, not a 5 year one (everyone hated him the second he left, the ill will didnít fester over time). Now heís a guy who played for four different teams and nobody cares about him anywhere. He ruined that, not Danny.

I hope that extra ring was worth it.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2018, 05:00:30 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Danny traded Ray Allen.  Let's not conveniently forget that small fact.  Memphis backed out after Danny had already told Allen the trade was done.  A lesser role?  Doc had already sent Allen to the bench.  He was going to have the exact same role on each team i.e. first guard off the bench, only difference is, one team was a contender that hadn't stabbed him in the back, the other one was not a contender that betrayed him the season before.
So? That doesn't matter. The NTC was on the table when he left for Miami. He wouldn't have had to worry about that again. He wasn't leaving Danny Ainge when he walked away, because Danny Ainge doesn't suit up for the Celtics. He walked out on Garnett, Pierce, Doc, and the rest of his teammates. If he wanted to stay, he would have stayed -- regardless of the manager and regardless of his role. He chose differently. That's fine, he's not a serf and free to choose his own destiny -- but that will ultimately cost him the spot in the rafters.
KG had a no trade clause, it didn't stop him from being traded.  Frankly, I think Doc and Rondo drove Allen away.  Doc, especially, wasn't very kind to Allen at the end, though I don't know why anyone would expect anything different from Doc.  Doc has always been a 2 faced ****.  Rondo just grinds certain people and him and Allen never really got along and as Rondo became more of a star, those two just clashed more and more.
The NTC came up because the narrative suddenly switched to, "Oh, Ray Allen didn't want to be worried about being  traded to Cleveland/Memphis/<insert place RA wouldn't want to be in>". The NTC is a guarantee against that. It doesn't mean you won't get traded, it means you have control over the process. That has nothing to do with Garnett (and Garnett agreed to go to NJ either way).
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2018, 05:05:58 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I am a bit confused by this raging debate. Hasn't ownership already said they would retire KG's number? Also isn't hayward already wearing Ray's number? I don't see the debate.

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2018, 05:39:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I am a bit confused by this raging debate. Hasn't ownership already said they would retire KG's number? Also isn't hayward already wearing Ray's number? I don't see the debate.
It's not a debate, per se. We already knew this ownership had made up their mind the second that KG set foot in the Garden with the Nets for the first time. There's some sort of misguided effort going on to convince everyone that Ray Allen is as worthy (or as unworthy, I guess) to get his number retired.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2018, 05:52:09 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I am a bit confused by this raging debate. Hasn't ownership already said they would retire KG's number? Also isn't hayward already wearing Ray's number? I don't see the debate.
It's not a debate, per se. We already knew this ownership had made up their mind the second that KG set foot in the Garden with the Nets for the first time. There's some sort of misguided effort going on to convince everyone that Ray Allen is as worthy (or as unworthy, I guess) to get his number retired.

Hmm but do people not realize Hayward, is wearing his number is expected to make multiple all-star games for the Celtics?

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2018, 07:01:12 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Yeah, Ray bled Green, too -
Why, because he wore a JoJo jersey when he was in middle school? Come on now. He bolted this team the moment the grind got hard. His jersey isn't going in the rafters. KG's is. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.

Or - he bolted for MIA as his CHOICE before Danny Ainge traded him to Timbuktu.

Come on now...this has been discussed on here Ad Infinitum.

Let's be real, here....at this rate Uncle Drew had BETTER be looking ahead at HIS "PREFERRED" destination in a few years....rather than Danny's.

LOOK - you / we can say the old tired adage - "The NBA is a Business". I get it. But i'm certain you're tearing away the threads of LOYALTY when you dangle players out there like that.

At least Ray got a warning.



You know...I so glad that Larry and Kevin got to ride off into the sunset in Celtic Green. But I realize these are different times now.

Ray made his choice and I respect him for it.

He'll ALWAYS be a Celtic, to me.

Excellent post.  You've made great contributions lately -- please post more! Several TPs coming your way.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me - red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me, because it's disrespect to my game."
-Larry Bird

Re: Retire KG's jersey?
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2018, 08:59:25 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I am a bit confused by this raging debate. Hasn't ownership already said they would retire KG's number? Also isn't hayward already wearing Ray's number? I don't see the debate.
It's not a debate, per se. We already knew this ownership had made up their mind the second that KG set foot in the Garden with the Nets for the first time. There's some sort of misguided effort going on to convince everyone that Ray Allen is as worthy (or as unworthy, I guess) to get his number retired.

I mean, that's fine if that's what people want to do.  But I don't have to care what these people think.

The bottom line is Garnett is getting his #5 retired and Allen is not getting his #20 retired.  That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

If anyone doesn't like that, well too bad.  They'll just have to settle for crying me a river.  Heck, I'll even buy the tissues.