Author Topic: Let's discuss our offense  (Read 2383 times)

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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 07:02:54 PM »

Online nickagneta

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It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch.

I think you are really reaching here.  I agree the offense can be predictible but these guys aren't being held back.  Tatum seems to be scared to shoot open 3's in recent games and Brown can be great or quiet at times, like he has all year.  Steven is not holding these guys back like some of you guys thing he is.  They just can't reliably do anything off the dribble, they almost never make a play for anyone else, in Tatum's case are gun shy at times (or maybe the finger is still hurt), and they don't have go to moves to score on quality defenders.  Instead of thinking Stevens is putting them in the corner, maybe realize that's their games right now. 


That's all fine for players in their first couple years too.  But to think it's Stevens holding them back in the most free form sport there is, when they could clearly do more if they were able, is really far off base.  Jaylen and Tatum get to come off screens (especially with the bench) and they don't really do anything with it except pull up for jumpers on occasion.  It's the same with Rozier as well.  He has moments but he has no real reliable moves and hardly ever makes plays for anyone.  That's just where these three players are.

I know you guys love to hate Smart but he man is a much better play maker and passer (WAY better) than any of those guys and he is missed for that alone.  And Tatum, flawless golden child that he is to many of you guys, has not been good in recent games at all and has gone from a reluctant shooter of threes to almost never shooting one.  It kills the offense to not have willing knock down shooters.
Not saying Stevens is holding them back. What I am saying is he has a simplified offense that is causing one to two players sitting in corners and not being involved because they have to stay the to wait for a kickout 3. As I said, he is doing it to second team members as well. And when Rozier and Kyrie are on the court together, he's done it to Kyrie a lot.

I am not accusing Stevens of holding back Brown and Tatum. I am criticizing a system that usually has only 2-3 players involved in most sets.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 07:30:36 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think we need to be more aggressive and attack the rim to balance out our spreading the floor.   When you don't do one all the team has to do is defend the one you're doing.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 07:48:28 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Watching the Cs and other teams, I notice three things:
1. The Cs rarely seem free in their offense. Everything is systematic. This wears teams down throughout games and hopefully will be effective in the playoffs, but Celtic 35 point quarters seem more rare than other teams.
2. The Cs have a very simple offense with relatively few variations, especially compared to last year. I think this was designed to help all of the new guys and young players adjust, but as teams get the rhythm of their offense, they aren't as effective.
3. Tatum and Brown are both running a lot more pick-and-rolls over the last few weeks. This should help their long-term development, but their reads are not very advanced and the offense can be inconsistent.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 07:59:33 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Are we discussing how awful it is?
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 08:23:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Watching the Cs and other teams, I notice three things:
1. The Cs rarely seem free in their offense. Everything is systematic. This wears teams down throughout games and hopefully will be effective in the playoffs, but Celtic 35 point quarters seem more rare than other teams.

This sounds right.

I'm not sure how frequent the Celts would have 35 point quarters if the offense was more free flowing.  Probably would be limited to night when Kyrie gets super hot.

I much, much, much preferring watching a system offense to an offense that amounts to "let the main guy on the floor, whoever that is, make stuff happen."  That's a big part of what I have always found unappealing about the Cavs.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 09:06:36 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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I think they are playing at the level expected for their talent.

Cav's have big offense, big veteran talent, good bench. Celtics don't have an answer for that...yet.

Raptors have offense, solid bench and speed...Celtics have no answer for that unless they play lights out defense...which they will in the playoffs.

Look at the starters:

Baynes isn't a "starting center".
Horford is an all star that isn't a starting center either.
Brown and Tatum are getting these minutes because that is what Ainge wants....
Irving has few options on the court with him...ever.

This team looks like #3 in the east waiting for their best winger to get back on the court. I really miss winning every dang night...that was a blast.

BTW...Would Smart have had any luck with Oladipo? My TV still has burn marks from his game the other night.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 10:21:15 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

I'm getting carpal tunnel from writing this same thing ALL SEASON. It drives me absolutely nuts. No cutters on the weak side...nothing, just stand and watch the wrong 3 guys play PnR offense.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 10:43:39 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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It seems to me that Stevens is bent on going with the trendy, Golden State-style offense despite not having the ideal personnel for it.

Golden State has the following 3pt specialists:

Thompson: 45.4% (7 attempts per game)
Durant: 41.9% (6 apg)
Curry: 41.7% (10 apg)

For Boston, on the other hand, Horford and Tatum are shooting 43.4% and 43.1%, respectively—really good, but on only 3.3 and 3 attempts per game.

And the Celtics who take the most 3-pointers per game aren't nearly as good, generally speaking:

Irving: 6.7 attempts per game, 39.1%
Brown: 4.6, 37.7%
Smart: 4.6, 29.9%
Rozier: 4.5, 37.3%
Morris: 3.9, 35.8%

Smart's percentage is the only truly bad one in the bunch, but Morris and Rozier have been inconsistent, and Brown is good only at the corner 3s, really. So Boston's best 3pt shooters (Tatum and Horford) are taking the fewest among the regulars. Seems like those two should be taking more, and the others taking fewer.

Hayward's return will help in many ways, including the 3pt attack, but it seems to me that Boston doesn't really have the big guns GS has—which begs the questions: Why shoot so many 3s? Or at least, why is anyone not named Tatum, Horford, and maybe Kyrie taking so many 3s? Why aren't the Celtics attacking the paint more?

Of course, the Cs have never been much of a paint-attacking team during Stevens' tenure (other than IT and Kyrie), and they really never excelled at it during the Rivers era, either. There have been TONS of times in the last decade-plus when, while watching a Cs game, I thought, "Why don't you guys take it to the rim more?!?" You get more free throws, which are easier points; you get in the bonus quicker, which leads to more free throws; and you get the other team's key players in foul trouble more often and sooner.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Boston's offense needs to be more dynamic, instead of so often just settling for 3s (contested or not).
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 12:23:57 AM »

Offline CelticsJG

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Outside of last year, we never had a good offensive system under Brad Stevens

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 04:30:15 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Last years team couldn’t defend to save their lives, but they sure were fun to watch with the ball.

This team is so painful to watch offensively sometimes. Even when they have the ball movement and find he right shot, they brick it. Very frustrating and they owe all their success to their defense.


Im glad we are doing this without Smart so people can stop blaming him exclusively. It’s a team problem.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 06:56:53 AM »

Offline TA9

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Not much to discuss is there?

Our offense is basically Kyrie Irving. Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are too inconsistent and it kind of annoys me that Horford is so passive at times on the offensive end. Can't wait until Hayward is back as we really need his production on the offensive end of the court.

Unbelievable that Ainge didn't try to bring some offensive firepower to this team as players like Bellinelli were available for the minimum.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 07:09:56 AM »

Offline More Banners

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Last years team couldn’t defend to save their lives, but they sure were fun to watch with the ball.

This team is so painful to watch offensively sometimes. Even when they have the ball movement and find he right shot, they brick it. Very frustrating and they owe all their success to their defense.


Im glad we are doing this without Smart so people can stop blaming him exclusively. It’s a team problem.

Bricking the open 3's after passing and working the defense is frustrating as heck.

I guess we just need to get better at hitting wide open shots. Maybe they could practice those.

Then again, we're playing our third string quite a lot, and this year was a wash the minute Hayward went down, so I'm just going to enjoy the wizardry of Irving, steadiness of Horford, and growth of Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 09:33:50 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

I'm getting carpal tunnel from writing this same thing ALL SEASON. It drives me absolutely nuts. No cutters on the weak side...nothing, just stand and watch the wrong 3 guys play PnR offense.

yeah i miss those backdoor cuts by avery bradley
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 09:47:53 AM »

Offline cltc5

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So these are some of the things, if I were coach, I would want to address :

1. Watch pre-season video, team. Look at the ball movement.  Look at the trust you showed in each other.  Stop organizing our entire offense around whether or not Kyrie and Al can work the pick and role play.  Every team in the NBA is aware of this.  You have gone from a ball movement team to a stand around and watch team. It is killing you. And is god awful to watch.  But you should know, as most of you are standing around and watching.

2. Jaylen, you are so gifted athletically. And you have improved your ball handling in traffic.  Stop all this "3 or pass" nonsense. Yes, you are a decent 3 point shooter. But the dimension you add to this team's offense is so great when you attack and either finish or dish off. No one else other than Kyrie has this ability.

3. Jaylen, quit over thinking yourself at the free throw line.  Connect to your inner confidence, the same confidence you are able to connect to at the 3 point line.  Get out of your freakin' head, brother.

4. Jayson, okay, you hit the rookie wall. It sucks. No break through it.  You need to be more creative with getting free to take your 3 point shots.  Learn to use picks more to get freed up.  And stop settling for long 2 point jumpers.  Learn to keep attacking to the hoop and finishing better, or dishing off to open team mate.

5.  Jayson and Terri, stop looking just to give the ball to Kyrie and Al.  Most of the time, the offense is over-playing them. Swing the dang ball to Jaylen's side. And when they do, Jaylen, re-read point 2 above.

6.  Kyrie, love the trade, and I know how you want to be a great point guard, and in certain respects you are.  But it is on you to fix the problems facing this offense--the lack of ball movement, the over-dependence on your isolation.  We did not trade for you to turn this Celtic team into last year's Cavs' team. How ironic that the current Cavs roster plays more like the Celtic team we fell in love with the last two years, and the first 2 months this year, than what we currently are.

7. Brad Stevens, you have to right this ship. All you seem to say lately is we need to pick up the pace, get into our sets earlier. While I agree that our pace stinks, just telling these guys to play faster doesn't seem to solve anything.    Who cares if the set up a Kyrie isolation with Al 5 seconds earlier?  The result still seems the same.

8.  Kyrie and Terry, save your heroics for the end of the shot clock. Start every set with ball movement.  If we haven't created a shot with 4 seconds to go, it should be in your hands.

9. Al Horford, I think we are getting the most out of you that we can expect.  I think you need to trust the young pups a little more (Jaylen and Jason), but otherwise I have no complaints. Well, take care of the ball a little better. That's it. You are the one guy who understands how the offense is supposed to function.

Well said. Most of this is coaching. Let's get it together Brad!

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 10:27:05 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.

I would share your hope if we weren't trending toward playing worse, not improvement.  Who have we added since beginning of season besides Monroe?  Our ball movement was much better early on.

I get what you're saying but I don't think it works that way. There isn't going to be a single, consistent trend line that goes in the same direction. There are ups and downs. The beginning of the season, when everyone was excited about the new year and the potential of a new team and then the streak, everyone was 100% invested and giving it their all and that covered for some of the problems of having a new team and playing young guys big minutes.

Now it's February. The excitement of the start of the season is over and the end of the tunnel is still really far off. Everybody knows the system but it still isn't second nature to anyone (except maybe Horford). I think something happens when it reaches that point where players are no longer thinking the system, it's just ingrained into how they play basketball and then they can start getting creative with it and things start flowing.

Right now there is no flow. I predict that will come in time if the Celtics can work through this rough patch. These are the times that bond a team. We'll have to see how they react.
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