Author Topic: Let's discuss our offense  (Read 3418 times)

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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 12:23:05 PM »

Online JHTruth

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On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.

He has an OBPM of -4.6. The much maligned Smart is "only" at -2.2 (although the lowest of his career). Baynes is roughly as bad on offense as IT was on defense last year. He's actually slightly worse than 2010-2011 Perk (the year he was traded). Perk was actually a much offensive player during the Finals runs and I remember him as like "please only shoot in absolute desperation".

Baynes is horrible at O..

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 12:30:30 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't know what "OBPM" is nor why I should care about it.

The difference between Smart and Baynes is that Smart is awful no matter what you do with him, and Baynes can be serviceable if you put him in the right spots (which our team has staunchly refused to do in recent times).
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 12:47:21 PM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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I didn't see the game against the Cavs, but I can tell you that the teams that defend the Celtics well are the ones that mess up the hand offs and other actions at the top of the key in the first few seconds of the shot clock. Toronto did this masterfully by pressuring Horford and screwing up the timing of those handoffs. I think the Pacers also did it, for instance by sticking their hand in when a Celtic was making the handoff. Oladipo got at least a couple steals off of those, but they had many more deflections that ruined the timing.

This is a timing and movement-based offense that's reliant on those handoffs. It's like a timing-based passing offense in football that comes up against a good press man-to-man defense that's able to jam the receivers at the line of scrimmage.

So far this team has not been able to adjust. I'm not sure if that's coaching, or personnel, or what. I can tell you that sometimes they need to fake the handoff and go straight to the rim, which will ease the pressure by teaching defenses that they can't cheat. Right now, if a defense disrupts those early actions, basically the players on the court don't know what to do and they just kind of fumble around.

Lastly... I think Smart's absence has really hurt the ball movement. He's a popular target in terms of his shooting, but he's an excellent passer and quarterbacked the offense when Irving was off the floor. Rozier has been great, but Smart has a very positive impact on getting the offense into the right flow (in my opinion).
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 04:48:13 PM »

Offline Jamilmac99

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We suck. That is all.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 04:54:48 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.

He has an OBPM of -4.6. The much maligned Smart is "only" at -2.2 (although the lowest of his career). Baynes is roughly as bad on offense as IT was on defense last year. He's actually slightly worse than 2010-2011 Perk (the year he was traded). Perk was actually a much offensive player during the Finals runs and I remember him as like "please only shoot in absolute desperation".

Baynes is horrible at O..

Monroe will start after the All-Star break.

Smitty77

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 05:13:05 PM »

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For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2018, 05:35:10 PM »

Offline footey

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So these are some of the things, if I were coach, I would want to address :

1. Watch pre-season video, team. Look at the ball movement.  Look at the trust you showed in each other.  Stop organizing our entire offense around whether or not Kyrie and Al can work the pick and role play.  Every team in the NBA is aware of this.  You have gone from a ball movement team to a stand around and watch team. It is killing you. And is god awful to watch.  But you should know, as most of you are standing around and watching.

2. Jaylen, you are so gifted athletically. And you have improved your ball handling in traffic.  Stop all this "3 or pass" nonsense. Yes, you are a decent 3 point shooter. But the dimension you add to this team's offense is so great when you attack and either finish or dish off. No one else other than Kyrie has this ability.

3. Jaylen, quit over thinking yourself at the free throw line.  Connect to your inner confidence, the same confidence you are able to connect to at the 3 point line.  Get out of your freakin' head, brother.

4. Jayson, okay, you hit the rookie wall. It sucks. No break through it.  You need to be more creative with getting free to take your 3 point shots.  Learn to use picks more to get freed up.  And stop settling for long 2 point jumpers.  Learn to keep attacking to the hoop and finishing better, or dishing off to open team mate.

5.  Jayson and Terri, stop looking just to give the ball to Kyrie and Al.  Most of the time, the offense is over-playing them. Swing the dang ball to Jaylen's side. And when they do, Jaylen, re-read point 2 above.

6.  Kyrie, love the trade, and I know how you want to be a great point guard, and in certain respects you are.  But it is on you to fix the problems facing this offense--the lack of ball movement, the over-dependence on your isolation.  We did not trade for you to turn this Celtic team into last year's Cavs' team. How ironic that the current Cavs roster plays more like the Celtic team we fell in love with the last two years, and the first 2 months this year, than what we currently are.

7. Brad Stevens, you have to right this ship. All you seem to say lately is we need to pick up the pace, get into our sets earlier. While I agree that our pace stinks, just telling these guys to play faster doesn't seem to solve anything.    Who cares if the set up a Kyrie isolation with Al 5 seconds earlier?  The result still seems the same.

8.  Kyrie and Terry, save your heroics for the end of the shot clock. Start every set with ball movement.  If we haven't created a shot with 4 seconds to go, it should be in your hands.

9. Al Horford, I think we are getting the most out of you that we can expect.  I think you need to trust the young pups a little more (Jaylen and Jason), but otherwise I have no complaints. Well, take care of the ball a little better. That's it. You are the one guy who understands how the offense is supposed to function.   

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2018, 05:39:11 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2018, 05:44:51 PM »

Online JHTruth

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It really is sobering to realize just how horrible the Celtics have become on offense. Ranked 29th since Jan 1. It's like we were just sort of treading water through the first half, then just sort of started drowning and taking our hopes with it..

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2018, 05:48:30 PM »

Offline footey

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Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.

I would share your hope if we weren't trending toward playing worse, not improvement.  Who have we added since beginning of season besides Monroe?  Our ball movement was much better early on. 

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2018, 06:12:45 PM »

Offline mctyson

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For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

Maybe he realizes...just MAYBE...that it is a pre-All Star break regular season game and that the biggest thing this team needs is to get to the playoffs in one piece, with fresh legs.

I just want Tatum full speed in May.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2018, 06:17:32 PM »

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For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

Maybe he realizes...just MAYBE...that it is a pre-All Star break regular season game and that the biggest thing this team needs is to get to the playoffs in one piece, with fresh legs.

I just want Tatum full speed in May.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2018, 06:22:40 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch.

I think you are really reaching here.  I agree the offense can be predictible but these guys aren't being held back.  Tatum seems to be scared to shoot open 3's in recent games and Brown can be great or quiet at times, like he has all year.  Steven is not holding these guys back like some of you guys thing he is.  They just can't reliably do anything off the dribble, they almost never make a play for anyone else, in Tatum's case are gun shy at times (or maybe the finger is still hurt), and they don't have go to moves to score on quality defenders.  Instead of thinking Stevens is putting them in the corner, maybe realize that's their games right now. 


That's all fine for players in their first couple years too.  But to think it's Stevens holding them back in the most free form sport there is, when they could clearly do more if they were able, is really far off base.  Jaylen and Tatum get to come off screens (especially with the bench) and they don't really do anything with it except pull up for jumpers on occasion.  It's the same with Rozier as well.  He has moments but he has no real reliable moves and hardly ever makes plays for anyone.  That's just where these three players are.

I know you guys love to hate Smart but he man is a much better play maker and passer (WAY better) than any of those guys and he is missed for that alone.  And Tatum, flawless golden child that he is to many of you guys, has not been good in recent games at all and has gone from a reluctant shooter of threes to almost never shooting one.  It kills the offense to not have willing knock down shooters.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:28:58 PM by Snakehead »
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2018, 06:24:31 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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this team used to play smart ball. when outside shots were not falling we went to hoop. when brad stressed PITP we got them. now? we live and die by 3's. pure stupid basketball and why can't brad correct it? he did earlier in year. no excuse.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 06:28:52 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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We suck right now. Rather it happen now and the team and Brad see whatís wrong and correct it by the playoffs.

Sucks that we are dropping games and hopefully we donít fall far in the standings but his is growing pains. We are missing an impact player (Smart) and have Monroe that needs to be worked in.

We arenít firing on all cylinders and we may need the freak to reset. I thought the London trip would do that but it did just the opposite. Hopefully we get it together soon and take back 1st place.

No need to overreact just yet.
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