Author Topic: Let's discuss our offense  (Read 3417 times)

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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 10:29:38 AM »

Offline jr_3421

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My first fix would be Theis starting. He gives us more versatility on defense and offense. Baynes is more reliable but at this point I would go with more upside and spacing since Horford is so consistent. Then Brad would have to choose between Moose or Mook because those two can definitely not play together defensively. Either Mook with Baynes or Moose with Tatum as the second unit frontcourt. But since Brad seems loyal to Baynes and Mook's ego needs to be carefully managed, I doubt any of this possible without injury.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 10:31:08 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Let's discuss our offense. No movement, lazy basketball, overreliance on the three pointer to bail us out of tough situation. This kind of worked a bit better, until we decided to apply the "no movement, lazy basketball" approach to defense as well.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 10:34:53 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet. 

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 10:38:18 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet.
Well, it IS true that if you add enough offensive weapons, eventually you won't really need to coach. That seems to be what Brad Stevens' offensive philosophy amounts to these days.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 10:46:59 AM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 10:50:40 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet.
Well, it IS true that if you add enough offensive weapons, eventually you won't really need to coach. That seems to be what Brad Stevens' offensive philosophy amounts to.

That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense within 6 months.

As for the Thunder, they have a trio of talented scorers but a mediocre offensive scheme.  It was the same way when Durant was still there.   

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.  There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?

Our offensive results are in line with the talent and youth of this team.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 10:57:41 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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The Celtics need a PG that can run offensive sets. Kyrie, just like IT before him take it upon themselves to be the main scorer when the team begins to falter, and the rest of the team stops moving and begin taking turns going iso. Spacing suffers because everyone stops moving.

This team misses Smart and Larkin. Smart for many reasons, but Larkin because he gets Kyrie moving without the ball, and the rest of the players on the floor follows suit.

This team needs to look at film of the winning streak, and see that Kyrie was averaging just around 20 a game, taking fewer shots, and passing the ball to the open man more.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 11:04:39 AM »

Offline Green-18

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The Celtics need a PG that can run offensive sets. Kyrie, just like IT before him take it upon themselves to be the main scorer when the team begins to falter, and the rest of the team stops moving and begin taking turns going iso. Spacing suffers because everyone stops moving.

This team misses Smart and Larkin. Smart for many reasons, but Larkin because he gets Kyrie moving without the ball, and the rest of the players on the floor follows suit.

This team needs to look at film of the winning streak, and see that Kyrie was averaging just around 20 a game, taking fewer shots, and passing the ball to the open man more.

Marcus is desperately needed on both ends of the court.  Larkin has also been an excellent 4th quarter spark plug. 

It would be nice to have a pick & roll player who is a threat to score.  Aside from Kyrie, each player has a fatal flaw in regards to running an offense.   

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 11:08:01 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.
Awwww, how nicely it tickles the ego when the NBA greats give you lip service. How did LeBron and Pop get by before they had Brad S to rip stuff off of.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense in 6 months.
Yes, coaching is very important. That's how we know exactly where we need to point the finger. This team is 21st in offense in the league -- Hayward or no Hayward, it has no business being sandwiched between DAL and ATL.

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.
The current group has Kyrie Irving and Al Horford. Some teams do more with less offensively.

There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?
I thought Brad S had a great playbook, the envy of Pop and LeBron. That all he's got, pick and roll with a guard and running shooters off of screen? The oldest horse in the NBA that every assistant coach in the league can diagram with one eye closed and one hand tied behind his back? LOL.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 11:16:13 AM »

Offline Green-18

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That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.
Awwww, how nicely it tickles the ego when the NBA greats give you lip service. How did LeBron and Pop get by before they had Brad S to rip stuff off of.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense in 6 months.
Yes, coaching is very important. That's how we know exactly where we need to point the finger. This team is 21st in offense in the league -- Hayward or no Hayward, it has no business being sandwiched between DAL and ATL.

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.
The current group has Kyrie Irving and Al Horford. Some teams do more with less offensively.

There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?
I thought Brad S had a great playbook, the envy of Pop and LeBron. That all he's got, pick and roll with a guard and running shooters off of screen? The oldest horse in the NBA that every assistant coach in the league can diagram with one eye closed and one hand tied behind his back? LOL.

Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.


Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 11:37:49 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 11:46:28 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.

Fair points.  I think we are roughly on the same page regarding the ceiling of the offense.  Slightly above average with an elite defense sounds about right.  Personally I am willing to grant Brad the benefit of the doubt until we see how the team looks after the All-Star break. 

On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:09 AM »

Online JHTruth

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Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.

Fair points.  I think we are roughly on the same page regarding the ceiling of the offense.  Slightly above average with an elite defense sounds about right.  Personally I am willing to grant Brad the benefit of the doubt until we see how the team looks after the All-Star break. 

On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.

Baynes is simply a horrific offensive player, and every stat you'll see bears that out. He is a back-up C at best, and his dismal offense is simply not a luxury we can afford down the stretch and into the playoffs. At this point you need to find a way to integrate Monroe into the offense and give him a viable role, even if it comes at the expense of some defense, although for the record I think Monroe can be at least serviceable on D. Maybe if we had a better offense we could hide Baynes on O, we just can't at this point. We need to drastically improve our O to have any chance of advancing.

Bottom line we have no playmaking or passing out there anymore. The team shot 38 3s against the Cavs and couldn't break 100. The offense couldn't have been more inefficient. No attacking the rim, and little to no post play. It needs to change or we could be seeing a 1st round exit.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:51 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.
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Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 12:09:25 PM »

Online JHTruth

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On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.

Re: Let's discuss our offense
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 12:11:57 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.
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