Poll

Do You Think Kyrie Is A Top 10 Player In The NBA Today?

Yes!
30 (50%)
No. He's Top-15 though.
22 (36.7%)
No. He's Top-20 though.
8 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?  (Read 3674 times)

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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2018, 02:24:09 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.

Yeah that's true. I start to wonder if Smart being out impacts this too.

He (along with Bradley) helped cover Isaiah's deficiencies on defense last year, and now with Smart out, it seems like the overall hustle and effort has taken a hit on the team, including Kyrie on the defensive end.
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2018, 03:07:14 PM »

Offline kmart12

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I believe he is a top-20 talent at this point.

He's a scoring guard and his excellence is attributed to his exceptional efficiency as a scorer. However, he is a below average defender (and one could argue that "below average" is a conservative take) and he is a fairly unimpressive passer and playmaker. In my opinion, he is fantastic at creating for himself but not as effective at creating for others. Depending on how much value you place on scoring, this could put him in the top-10 conversation due to how terrifically efficient he is, but I believe there are players that can do more in addition to efficiently dropping 20 or 25 a game.

Guards like Paul, Steph, Harden, and Westbrook produce comparable scoring output to a degree, but make other major contributions to their teams. Even in a case like Westbrook, where his shooting efficiency is substantially lower than that of Kyrie, his defensive impact, rebounding, and his ability to create for his teammates are more than enough to make up for poor shooting percentages. Or in the case of Harden, he scores significantly more points (approximately 7 PPG) and also drops 4 more assists than Kyrie in about 3 or 4 minutes per game. Sure, Harden is not a DPOY candidate, but he brings more to the table on the offensive end in a substantial tangible way that Kyrie cannot match.

One thing to keep in mind is that Kyrie is still 25 years old and his game is still developing. Time will tell if he can develop other aspects of his game and take that additional leap. But even if he were to stay the same, he is still a great player in his own right, and his game will age well given his below-the-rim style of play.

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2018, 03:11:19 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.
Some falls on Irving, but honestly I think its a lot due to the personnel.

Tatum, Morris and to a lesser extent Brown all do more off the dribble than Bradley and Crowder do. Those guys are pretty exclusively catch and shoot players.
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2018, 03:31:09 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.
Some falls on Irving, but honestly I think its a lot due to the personnel.

Tatum, Morris and to a lesser extent Brown all do more off the dribble than Bradley and Crowder do. Those guys are pretty exclusively catch and shoot players.

I don’t necessarily buy that adding more skilled offensive players is the reason why our assists dropped from second to 20th, or why our overall offense went from 8th to 25th.


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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2018, 04:20:23 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I believe he is a top-20 talent at this point.

He's a scoring guard and his excellence is attributed to his exceptional efficiency as a scorer. However, he is a below average defender (and one could argue that "below average" is a conservative take) and he is a fairly unimpressive passer and playmaker. In my opinion, he is fantastic at creating for himself but not as effective at creating for others. Depending on how much value you place on scoring, this could put him in the top-10 conversation due to how terrifically efficient he is, but I believe there are players that can do more in addition to efficiently dropping 20 or 25 a game.

Guards like Paul, Steph, Harden, and Westbrook produce comparable scoring output to a degree, but make other major contributions to their teams. Even in a case like Westbrook, where his shooting efficiency is substantially lower than that of Kyrie, his defensive impact, rebounding, and his ability to create for his teammates are more than enough to make up for poor shooting percentages. Or in the case of Harden, he scores significantly more points (approximately 7 PPG) and also drops 4 more assists than Kyrie in about 3 or 4 minutes per game. Sure, Harden is not a DPOY candidate, but he brings more to the table on the offensive end in a substantial tangible way that Kyrie cannot match.

One thing to keep in mind is that Kyrie is still 25 years old and his game is still developing. Time will tell if he can develop other aspects of his game and take that additional leap. But even if he were to stay the same, he is still a great player in his own right, and his game will age well given his below-the-rim style of play.

Wow. TP. Very well said!
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2018, 04:46:52 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.
Some falls on Irving, but honestly I think its a lot due to the personnel.

Tatum, Morris and to a lesser extent Brown all do more off the dribble than Bradley and Crowder do. Those guys are pretty exclusively catch and shoot players.

I don’t necessarily buy that adding more skilled offensive players is the reason why our assists dropped from second to 20th, or why our overall offense went from 8th to 25th.

Are you saying it's not the sole reason or do you not think that switching out spot-up shooters for more creative ballhandlers would have an affect on team assists?

I think the loss of veterans who knew how to move away from the ball and a total overhaul in personel also goes into it, but having more guys who can/want to go one-on-one matters too.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:50:45 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 05:10:40 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.

Some, but not the majority. Other than Kyrie/IT, Horford, Smart and Rozier (our PG and the three carryovers), here are the AST% of the remaining rotation guys last year and this year:

2016
Crowder 10.1%
Bradley 11.0%
Amir 13.0%
Olynyk 15.2%

2017
Tatum 7.2%
Brown 8.0%
Baynes 7.9%
Morris 8.4%

We took a few passable playmakers and one good one (KO), and swapped them out for four black holes, basically.

For all the ways Tatum has exceeded expectations this year, his ball-stopping has certainly been as advertised. Brown is pretty atrocious too. And those two have played more minutes than Horford and Irving. Tatum, Brown, Baynes and Morris are essentially incapable of creating for others, and that's 3 of our 5 starters.

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2018, 07:11:51 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.

Some, but not the majority. Other than Kyrie/IT, Horford, Smart and Rozier (our PG and the three carryovers), here are the AST% of the remaining rotation guys last year and this year:

2016
Crowder 10.1%
Bradley 11.0%
Amir 13.0%
Olynyk 15.2%

2017
Tatum 7.2%
Brown 8.0%
Baynes 7.9%
Morris 8.4%

We took a few passable playmakers and one good one (KO), and swapped them out for four black holes, basically.

For all the ways Tatum has exceeded expectations this year, his ball-stopping has certainly been as advertised. Brown is pretty atrocious too. And those two have played more minutes than Horford and Irving. Tatum, Brown, Baynes and Morris are essentially incapable of creating for others, and that's 3 of our 5 starters.

Interesting. From the guys that left last year I have to say that I miss Olynyk the most. But when I see these assist percentages, I think of the criticism in another thread about what the NBA considers to be an assist. That when a player makes two dribbles the initial pass still counts as an assist.

Maybe a big part of the assists by Crowder, Bradley and Johnson was just about giving the ball back to Thomas in a situation where there was no space for them to shoot the ball. Since neither of them can create shots of the dribble. And if Thomas then created his own basket it may still often have counted as an assist.

Tatum, Brown and Morris can create their own shot. Therefore they don't always have to pass the ball when there's no space to immediately shoot. Sometimes it's favorable that they attack mismatches or drive to the basket. So I don't think their low assist percentages are necessarily a bad thing, besides I find that Tatum (and even Brown) has shown at times that he has good court vision. I definetely see some playmaking ability in him.

On the other hand I see very little in Baynes as a playmaker in the Horford-role what we sometimes see them trying. And the high correlation between quality of offense and the amount of assists shows that coaches are right to emphasize ball movement. You have to be elite or have a clear mismatch to go for the isolation-play. That's why I don't like Morris. He's good, but not elite and therefore doesn't warrant to play that way.

Tatum and Brown could develop in elite players, I don't mind that they are actively looking what their capabilities are.
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2018, 11:24:30 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I wouldn't put him top 10. Still a lousy defensive player and not much of a playmaker. Great player sure, but not top 10.

He's not Top-10, but are you sure that he's a lousy defensive player and not a playmaker???
Yes, no doubt about it.
Man, forums are filled with bad takes as of late

I think Kyrie’s defense has regressed, and he’s never been much of a playmaker. He’s, what, 30th in assists, behind our starting center?  We went from 2nd in assists per possession last season to 20th now.  We’ve got some real issues with playmaking, and at least some blame falls on Kyrie.

Some, but not the majority. Other than Kyrie/IT, Horford, Smart and Rozier (our PG and the three carryovers), here are the AST% of the remaining rotation guys last year and this year:

2016
Crowder 10.1%
Bradley 11.0%
Amir 13.0%
Olynyk 15.2%

2017
Tatum 7.2%
Brown 8.0%
Baynes 7.9%
Morris 8.4%

We took a few passable playmakers and one good one (KO), and swapped them out for four black holes, basically.

For all the ways Tatum has exceeded expectations this year, his ball-stopping has certainly been as advertised. Brown is pretty atrocious too. And those two have played more minutes than Horford and Irving. Tatum, Brown, Baynes and Morris are essentially incapable of creating for others, and that's 3 of our 5 starters.

Interesting. From the guys that left last year I have to say that I miss Olynyk the most. But when I see these assist percentages, I think of the criticism in another thread about what the NBA considers to be an assist. That when a player makes two dribbles the initial pass still counts as an assist.

Maybe a big part of the assists by Crowder, Bradley and Johnson was just about giving the ball back to Thomas in a situation where there was no space for them to shoot the ball. Since neither of them can create shots of the dribble. And if Thomas then created his own basket it may still often have counted as an assist.

Tatum, Brown and Morris can create their own shot. Therefore they don't always have to pass the ball when there's no space to immediately shoot. Sometimes it's favorable that they attack mismatches or drive to the basket. So I don't think their low assist percentages are necessarily a bad thing, besides I find that Tatum (and even Brown) has shown at times that he has good court vision. I definetely see some playmaking ability in him.

On the other hand I see very little in Baynes as a playmaker in the Horford-role what we sometimes see them trying. And the high correlation between quality of offense and the amount of assists shows that coaches are right to emphasize ball movement. You have to be elite or have a clear mismatch to go for the isolation-play. That's why I don't like Morris. He's good, but not elite and therefore doesn't warrant to play that way.

Tatum and Brown could develop in elite players, I don't mind that they are actively looking what their capabilities are.

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm just being harsh, but I never lost any sleep with Olynyk leaving.

He had a fantastic Game 7 for us (so KO left us with a bang!) and certainly could stretch the floor, but man he was such an infuriating and inconsistent player to watch. (Pump Fake 3s, getting pounded by fourth string bigs, relatively soft...)  :(
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Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2018, 11:52:17 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Lebron
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Leonard
Paul
Cousins

Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2018, 03:38:00 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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Lebron
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Leonard
Paul
Cousins

Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

TP. That's similar to my list. I think if Embiid stays healthy, he could sneak into the Top-10 by the end of the year, or surely by next year.

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2018, 04:45:24 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Lebron
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Leonard
Paul
Cousins

Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

"Top 10 player" can mean different things, but Nick, if you had to pick someone to win a 7 game series in the NBA Finals, this year, keeping all the other talent on the team constant, would those lists look the same?


Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2018, 05:03:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Lebron
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Leonard
Paul
Cousins

Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

"Top 10 player" can mean different things, but Nick, if you had to pick someone to win a 7 game series in the NBA Finals, this year, keeping all the other talent on the team constant, would those lists look the same?
Not sure that's possible to answer as players play different positions, so all other players being constant, really couldn't happen.

Now if you're talking just PGs or point forwards, that makes it a valid question and I am not sure. That obviously puts Kyrie into the equation because none of Westbrook, Paul, Harden and Giannis have won a title.

Hmmmmm...it's tough but yeah, I would still probably take those other guys. But its ridiculously close. Not 100% sure to be completely honest.

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 02:25:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

"Top 10 player" can mean different things, but Nick, if you had to pick someone to win a 7 game series in the NBA Finals, this year, keeping all the other talent on the team constant, would those lists look the same?
I think they would look pretty similar and if there were changes, it wouldn't be to move Irving up.  I think people forget how inconsistent he is.  Yeah he hit that huge shot in game 7 and had that monster game 5, but he had some real clunkers in that series (the first 2 games he was downright terrible).  And that is pretty standard for Irving.  Some epic games and performances, sprinkled in with clunkers where you wonder where he is.  He is better than Rondo, but I think they are very similar in that regard, in that they can have absolutely awesome games, which people remember for years, but they have a lot more stinkers than many of the other greats, and nobody remembers those.   

Re: Is Kyrie now a Legit Top-10 Player?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 03:28:44 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Lebron
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Davis
Giannis
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Those in no particular order are your top ten players. I think Kyrie is definitely in the next group of 5-10 players.

George
Butler
Kyrie
Lillard
Towns
Embiid
Love
Wall
Porzingas
Griffin

All in no particular order

TP. That's similar to my list. I think if Embiid stays healthy, he could sneak into the Top-10 by the end of the year, or surely by next year.
I think Embiid is already top 10.  He's arguably the best big man in the game or at worst a close second to AD.  Definitely ahead of Cousins.  Cousins has his achilles injury and AD has his own injury history.