Author Topic: CAVSMAGEDDON!!  (Read 51140 times)

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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2018, 09:15:23 AM »

Offline Moranis

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2018, 09:23:31 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Also look at how KG's #s changed from Minnesota to Boston as he got older.

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2018, 09:25:51 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2018, 09:36:29 AM »

Offline Moranis

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2018, 09:39:26 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).

Shouldn’t he step up his production in the absence of Kyrie? Why hasn’t he if he’s a latent superstar?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2018, 09:51:04 AM »

Offline Moranis

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).

Shouldn’t he step up his production in the absence of Kyrie? Why hasn’t he if he’s a latent superstar?
He did step up his production.  You just keep ignoring that he is actually a more productive player this year then he was last year or at any time previously in Cleveland.  He is playing less minutes because the Cavs were a mess. 

For more proof of that mess, Lebron didn't jump his production.  He is a nearly identical player on a per minute basis this year as he was last year (and he is playing nearly identical minutes).  Shouldn't the best player in the world see a production spike when the 2nd best player leaves the team?
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2018, 09:58:22 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).

Shouldn’t he step up his production in the absence of Kyrie? Why hasn’t he if he’s a latent superstar?
He did step up his production.  You just keep ignoring that he is actually a more productive player this year then he was last year or at any time previously in Cleveland.  He is playing less minutes because the Cavs were a mess. 

For more proof of that mess, Lebron didn't jump his production.  He is a nearly identical player on a per minute basis this year as he was last year (and he is playing nearly identical minutes).  Shouldn't the best player in the world see a production spike when the 2nd best player leaves the team?

He’s averaging 1.1 points more and 1.2 rebounds / 0.2 assists less per 100 possessions. You call that stepping up in the absence of Kyrie?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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How long till teams adjust to the new Cavs strength's and weaknesses? 




Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2018, 10:25:37 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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How long till teams adjust to the new Cavs strength's and weaknesses?

Until the NBA championship.

I love the Celtics, but they're 3rd in the East behind CLE and TOR

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2018, 10:26:38 AM »

Offline Moranis

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).

Shouldn’t he step up his production in the absence of Kyrie? Why hasn’t he if he’s a latent superstar?
He did step up his production.  You just keep ignoring that he is actually a more productive player this year then he was last year or at any time previously in Cleveland.  He is playing less minutes because the Cavs were a mess. 

For more proof of that mess, Lebron didn't jump his production.  He is a nearly identical player on a per minute basis this year as he was last year (and he is playing nearly identical minutes).  Shouldn't the best player in the world see a production spike when the 2nd best player leaves the team?

He’s averaging 1.1 points more and 1.2 rebounds / 0.2 assists less per 100 possessions. You call that stepping up in the absence of Kyrie?
More of a step up then Lebron, who I would assume you have no problem claiming is at worst a top 3 player in the world.

The Cavs were a complete and total disaster for much of the season, and despite that Love is scoring more on less shots.  His PER is up nearly 2 points.  He is turning it over less.  his WS/48 are up .024 (which is fairly significant).
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2018, 10:27:05 AM »

Offline Green-18

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How long till teams adjust to the new Cavs strength's and weaknesses?

Aside from experience I don't believe the Cavs got weaker in any way.  They are younger, more athletic, and have better perimeter shooting.  It's not like the defense can get any worse.  I also believe that George Hill gives them a better chance of getting stops in crunch time during the playoffs.  J.R. Smith also proved to be a very solid defender during the title run in 2016.  There's no reason he can't replicate the same effort if properly motivated.

As I have mentioned many times before, it all comes down to LeBron James at the end of the day.  As long as he's happy then I have a hard time seeing the Cavs getting bounced until the Finals.  It's such a boring but true narrative.

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2018, 10:37:00 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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How long till teams adjust to the new Cavs strength's and weaknesses?

Until the NBA championship.

I love the Celtics, but they're 3rd in the East behind CLE and TOR


Because the new look Cavs played one game?   

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2018, 10:42:39 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.
Production Rates

TS% - RB% - AST% - STL% - BLK% - TOV% - USG%

Age 23 - 6th in MVP voting season
56.8 - 19.0 - 10.0 - 1.1 - 0.9 - 9.2 - 28.8

Age 25 - last year in Minn
59.1 - 18.7 - 21.4 - 1.0 - 1.0 -10.3 - 28.8

Age 29 - Current Season
61.3 - 18.7 - 9.4 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 9.3 - 25.5


How about per 36 totals

Points - Rebounds - Assists - Steals - Blocks - Turnovers

Age 23
24/12.3/1.9/0.8/0.5/2.1

Age 25
25.9/12.4/4.4/0.8/0.5/2.5

Age 29
23/12/2.1/0.9/0.5/1.9


His actual on floor production, his rates, etc. are pretty similar on an actual per minute basis.  He is playing less minutes and taking less shots, but is scoring more per shot.  He is rebounding at almost an identical percentage of available rebounds even with playing next to the best rebounding SF since Bird. 

The reality is numbers diminish when you go from a #1 option to a #2 or #3 option.  Ask Chris Bosh how that went.  I mean his last year in Toronto Bosh was a 24/11/2.5 player.  His time in Miami with James he was basically a 17/7/1.5 player (getting worse every season) to a low of basically 16/6.5/1 and then James leaves and Bosh jumps back up to 21/7/2. 

Heck even former MVP's who join more talented teams see their production drop.  Curry dropped 5 ppg when Durant joined him.  Durant dropped 3 ppg.  James in his Miami move dropped 3 ppg.  But it doesn't mean any of those players aren't still just as good as they were before they had new teammates.

Kevin Love is the second option on the Cavs, and he’s averaging 18 ppg. If he’s capable of playing like a top-10 player, why isn’t he? He’s scoring less as a second option than he did as a third option last season.
He is playing 28 mpg, down from 31.4 mpg.  He is actually scoring more per minute this year then he was last year.  His minutes are down in a large part because the Cavs were a mess and had a lot of blowouts (in both directions) and he had the illness game of 3 minutes and the injury game of 5 minutes (he goes up a full minute if you take those two games out).

Shouldn’t he step up his production in the absence of Kyrie? Why hasn’t he if he’s a latent superstar?
He did step up his production.  You just keep ignoring that he is actually a more productive player this year then he was last year or at any time previously in Cleveland.  He is playing less minutes because the Cavs were a mess. 

For more proof of that mess, Lebron didn't jump his production.  He is a nearly identical player on a per minute basis this year as he was last year (and he is playing nearly identical minutes).  Shouldn't the best player in the world see a production spike when the 2nd best player leaves the team?

He’s averaging 1.1 points more and 1.2 rebounds / 0.2 assists less per 100 possessions. You call that stepping up in the absence of Kyrie?
More of a step up then Lebron, who I would assume you have no problem claiming is at worst a top 3 player in the world.

The Cavs were a complete and total disaster for much of the season, and despite that Love is scoring more on less shots.  His PER is up nearly 2 points.  He is turning it over less.  his WS/48 are up .024 (which is fairly significant).

Why would Lebron’s production go up? He’s seeing more double-teams and fewer easy shots because he no longer has an elite scorer playing next to him.

You can’t argue “Love’s production went down because he became a third option” while excusing his stagnant production when he was asked to be a #2.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2018, 10:45:23 AM »

Offline Big333223

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts

You said Love this year was better than IT last year. There’s no real objective support for that position. We judge players based upon results.

Yeah, this is a pretty wild argument to me. I know IT gets some hate around this board now, but arguing that Kevin Love is having a better season this year than IT had last year is... just wild.
Again I never argued Love was having a better season, I said he is a better player.  There is a very large difference between those two statements.

Actually, Roy wrote "Last year’s IT > this year’s Love" and you responded "no he wasn't".

If that's not what you meant, that's fine, but if there's confusion, it's because you wrote something you apparently don't believe.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2018, 10:46:13 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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How long till teams adjust to the new Cavs strength's and weaknesses?

Until the NBA championship.

I love the Celtics, but they're 3rd in the East behind CLE and TOR


Because the new look Cavs played one game?
No, it's because we're trending in the wrong direction, we seem to go down by 20 every other game, and every time we suit up against a rival in the East we're getting blown out. At this rate, I'm worried about WAS and MIL more than I'm about CLE and TOR.
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