Trade for Kawhi?

[Moranis]

Like I said.  Recency bias.  Another way to put it is that Leonard has -only- put up two 20 ppg seasons in his entire career.  Jimmy Butler who has put up 4 straight 20 point+ seasons and is also regularly a member of the all-defensive team has proven much more than Leonard.  And I'm not putting Butler above Paul Pierce yet.

Leonard also has dealt with serious injury issues his entire career including this year.  Outside of his two 20ppg seasons, he has never played more than 70 games in an entire season.  Answer the question than, so is IT a better player than PP because he was top 5 in MVP voting and PP was not?  Answer is obviously no.  Question answered. 

Leonard has a lot of upside left in his game if he can come back the player that he was before the injury.  IT obviously couldn't pull that off.  But as of right now, Leonard has not done enough to prove that he is a greater player than PP was.  Your hyperbole might sound credible to your own ears, but I'm not buying what you're selling.  Come back to me in 5 years if Leonard can manage to put up the same or similar numbers that he did in 2016-17 over the next 5 years, then I'll reevaluate how worthy he is to be compared to a Hall of Famer.

Kawhi Leonard has back to back 1st Team All NBA seasons and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting those seasons.  He also finished 3 seasons ago 10th in MVP voting.  That year, as well as 2 years ago, he was voted the best defensive player in the league and finished 3rd in that category last year.  In other words, for the last 3 years, Kawhi Leonard has been the best defensive player in the entire league and a top 5 player in the league overall.  Pierce was never that.  It isn't recency bias, it just the fact that Leonard has quite simply been better than Pierce ever was.  Pierce did it far longer, but that doesn't change the fact that Leonard has been better.

IT had a higher offensive peak then Pierce did, but IT is a terrible defender.  That said, if IT had 3 straight seasons where he was the best defender in the league and a top 5 player in the league, then yeah I'd say he had a higher peak and was better than Pierce, especially if IT was still just 26 years old.  Kawhi Leonard's last 3 seasons were better than any 3 seasons in Paul Pierce's career (not consecutive, any 3 seasons period).  That is essentially a fact as there are no real metrics from which that can be disputed. 

A longer career doesn't make a player better, it just means they had a longer career.  I mean was Karl Malone or Kobe Bryant better than Michael Jordan, just because they played longer, had more seasons of 20 ppg, etc. 

[vjcsmoke]

You really picked the wrong guy to use as an example.  MJ played 15 years in the league, never averaged less than 20ppg even in the twilight of his career, posted 8 seasons of 30+ ppg, and won 6 championships.

I'm well within my rights to demand to see more before I become a believer in Leonard who has had only 2 good seasons in the NBA.

Just take a look at Dwight Howard for instance.  After 4 really good 20 ppg seasons, one might have assumed he was going to become an all time great big man in the mold of Shaq or Olajawun.  But after he left Orlando he was never able to maintain that pace.

When all is said and done I would believe that a player like Patrick Ewing, who never won an MVP btw, had a greater career and was a greater player than Howard.

So yes, Leonard has the potential to be great, but he hasn't done -nearly- enough to be considered better than a proven Hall of Famer in my book.  I'm not going to try to change your mind on this and I respect your viewpoint, but I remain unconvinced on Leonard being a greater player than Pierce at this point in time.  Like I said, he has to show me at least 5 more great years before I'd even consider rating him at that level as a player.

[Jarrin John]

Even Derek Jeter's gold gloves think it's funny that voting contests are carrying so much weight with some posters in this discussion. They're being played like trump cards.

For the record, I think these last couple of years Leonard has been Top 5 elite, which is better than PP ever was. But let's see what he does the next 10 years or so.

[nickagneta]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id1_select=Paul+Pierce&y1=2005&player_id1=piercpa01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&y2=2018&player_id2=leonaka01&idx=players

First 7 years they look pretty similar

[Ilikesports17]

Even Derek Jeter's gold gloves think it's funny that voting contests are carrying so much weight with some posters in this discussion. They're being played like trump cards.

For the record, I think these last couple of years Leonard has been Top 5 elite, which is better than PP ever was. But let's see what he does the next 10 years or so.

"These last couple years"

I'd say last year.

[Ilikesports17]

Like I said.  Recency bias.  Another way to put it is that Leonard has -only- put up two 20 ppg seasons in his entire career.  Jimmy Butler who has put up 4 straight 20 point+ seasons and is also regularly a member of the all-defensive team has proven much more than Leonard.  And I'm not putting Butler above Paul Pierce yet.

Leonard also has dealt with serious injury issues his entire career including this year.  Outside of his two 20ppg seasons, he has never played more than 70 games in an entire season.  Answer the question than, so is IT a better player than PP because he was top 5 in MVP voting and PP was not?  Answer is obviously no.  Question answered. 

Leonard has a lot of upside left in his game if he can come back the player that he was before the injury.  IT obviously couldn't pull that off.  But as of right now, Leonard has not done enough to prove that he is a greater player than PP was.  Your hyperbole might sound credible to your own ears, but I'm not buying what you're selling.  Come back to me in 5 years if Leonard can manage to put up the same or similar numbers that he did in 2016-17 over the next 5 years, then I'll reevaluate how worthy he is to be compared to a Hall of Famer.

Kawhi Leonard has back to back 1st Team All NBA seasons and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting those seasons.  He also finished 3 seasons ago 10th in MVP voting.  That year, as well as 2 years ago, he was voted the best defensive player in the league and finished 3rd in that category last year.  In other words, for the last 3 years, Kawhi Leonard has been the best defensive player in the entire league and a top 5 player in the league overall.  Pierce was never that.  It isn't recency bias, it just the fact that Leonard has quite simply been better than Pierce ever was.  Pierce did it far longer, but that doesn't change the fact that Leonard has been better.

IT had a higher offensive peak then Pierce did, but IT is a terrible defender.  That said, if IT had 3 straight seasons where he was the best defender in the league and a top 5 player in the league, then yeah I'd say he had a higher peak and was better than Pierce, especially if IT was still just 26 years old.  Kawhi Leonard's last 3 seasons were better than any 3 seasons in Paul Pierce's career (not consecutive, any 3 seasons period).  That is essentially a fact as there are no real metrics from which that can be disputed. 

A longer career doesn't make a player better, it just means they had a longer career.  I mean was Karl Malone or Kobe Bryant better than Michael Jordan, just because they played longer, had more seasons of 20 ppg, etc.

IDK if Leonards 17/7/3 season where he didnt even make an all star game was better than Pierce's peak.

[Moranis]

Like I said.  Recency bias.  Another way to put it is that Leonard has -only- put up two 20 ppg seasons in his entire career.  Jimmy Butler who has put up 4 straight 20 point+ seasons and is also regularly a member of the all-defensive team has proven much more than Leonard.  And I'm not putting Butler above Paul Pierce yet.

Leonard also has dealt with serious injury issues his entire career including this year.  Outside of his two 20ppg seasons, he has never played more than 70 games in an entire season.  Answer the question than, so is IT a better player than PP because he was top 5 in MVP voting and PP was not?  Answer is obviously no.  Question answered. 

Leonard has a lot of upside left in his game if he can come back the player that he was before the injury.  IT obviously couldn't pull that off.  But as of right now, Leonard has not done enough to prove that he is a greater player than PP was.  Your hyperbole might sound credible to your own ears, but I'm not buying what you're selling.  Come back to me in 5 years if Leonard can manage to put up the same or similar numbers that he did in 2016-17 over the next 5 years, then I'll reevaluate how worthy he is to be compared to a Hall of Famer.

Kawhi Leonard has back to back 1st Team All NBA seasons and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting those seasons.  He also finished 3 seasons ago 10th in MVP voting.  That year, as well as 2 years ago, he was voted the best defensive player in the league and finished 3rd in that category last year.  In other words, for the last 3 years, Kawhi Leonard has been the best defensive player in the entire league and a top 5 player in the league overall.  Pierce was never that.  It isn't recency bias, it just the fact that Leonard has quite simply been better than Pierce ever was.  Pierce did it far longer, but that doesn't change the fact that Leonard has been better.

IT had a higher offensive peak then Pierce did, but IT is a terrible defender.  That said, if IT had 3 straight seasons where he was the best defender in the league and a top 5 player in the league, then yeah I'd say he had a higher peak and was better than Pierce, especially if IT was still just 26 years old.  Kawhi Leonard's last 3 seasons were better than any 3 seasons in Paul Pierce's career (not consecutive, any 3 seasons period).  That is essentially a fact as there are no real metrics from which that can be disputed. 

A longer career doesn't make a player better, it just means they had a longer career.  I mean was Karl Malone or Kobe Bryant better than Michael Jordan, just because they played longer, had more seasons of 20 ppg, etc.

IDK if Leonards 17/7/3 season where he didnt even make an all star game was better than Pierce's peak.

He was the best defender in the league though and finished 10th in MVP voting (he was also 7th in box plus/minus).  That said, I did mean it as take his last 3 seasons and then take Pierce's best 3 seasons and compare them (I realize I probably didn't make that as clear as I should have).  Either way, when you couple that he was the best defender in the league, I think you can at least make an argument for that season as being better than Pierce's best season (which was probably 08/09 which was not his best statistical season). 

and BTW, Pierce played a lot more minutes than Leonard which absolutely alters the totals.  I get there is merit in playing more, but it does make it harder to truly compare impact, especially since everyone in the league plays a lot less minutes today.  I mean in 05/06, 9 players played over 40 minutes a game.  Rafer Alston and Mike Bibby were tied for 19th at 38.6 mpg.  Giannis is leading the league this year with 37.2 mpg and the only other players over 37 are Butler and James.  Devin Booker is 20th this year at 34.4 mpg.  It was just a different type of game when Pierce was in his prime. 

[GRADYCOLNON]

a question we haven't answered, Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?  We know he can defense lights out, he is improving his scoring but is he taking his team to the Western Conference Finals last year and potentially winning that series if he wasn't hurt.

I know we could point to Stevens, but the reality is that Stevens doesn't have the track record remotely close to Pop in terms of coaching a team into the final 4

[vjcsmoke]

a question we haven't answered, Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?  We know he can defense lights out, he is improving his scoring but is he taking his team to the Western Conference Finals last year and potentially winning that series if he wasn't hurt.

I know we could point to Stevens, but the reality is that Stevens doesn't have the track record remotely close to Pop in terms of coaching a team into the final 4

If you are asking if Leonard could thrive with the Celtics, I would say, -if his health checks out-, yes, I don't see any reason why Stevens would be unable to draw out the best in Kahwi.  Stevens has improved the careers and trajectories of so many players coached by him already.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have Leonard on this team, as I think he would improve our overall talent level and get us that much closer to winning a championship.  I just feel that anointing Kawhi as a HOFer after 2 good seasons is vastly premature.

And if you asked me to choose between giving up the farm for Davis or Leonard, I'd pick Davis every time.  But Leonard might be more obtainable. 

We'll see what happens in terms of a trade in the offseason but it looks like Leonard has agreed to return to play.  He is starting to practice with the Spurs now and media is reporting he might be playing for them again in maybe 2 weeks if he feels good.

[SHAQATTACK]

Yabu make Pop a good Spur.

[biggs]

I heard on a podcast that if he gets out its to find a way back to California.

Well if you heard it on some podcast then it must be true. Especially since he’s going to be a free agent. Oh wait, he’s under contract? Then he must have a no trade clause. No? Oh yeah that’s right. He can’t choose where he gets traded. This is real life, not MyCareer in NBA2k18.

Why all the hate? Someone saying they heard something does not necessarily mean they believe it's a fact. 

[Jarrin John]

... Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?

Would Tom Brady be the GOAT without Bill Belichick & his "system"?

[SparzWizard]

... Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?

Would Tom Brady be the GOAT without Bill Belichick & his "system"?

500+ yards in a Superbowl while BB showed his ego by benching Malcolm Butler for no good reason yah Tom Brady is the GOAT and it's not the "system".

[gouki88]

... Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?

Would Tom Brady be the GOAT without Bill Belichick & his "system"?

500+ yards in a Superbowl while BB showed his ego by benching Malcolm Butler for no good reason yah Tom Brady is the GOAT and it's not the "system".

I'd forgotten how frustrating the Pats were that day

[Celtics4ever]

Would Kawhi have success if he wasn't coached by Pop?

Yes!  All the tools are there and his mentality on D, is usually something that is natural not honed by tons of coaching.   Guys either commit or they don't.   Imagine having Timmy D as a peer helped too.   Pop is a great coach, but spurs have a system of picking guys who will buy in.   The ability is already there, though.