Author Topic: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary  (Read 20534 times)

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Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2018, 11:59:38 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.

For someone who claims to be as business savvy as you think you are, I would have thought you'd understand what franchise value is, and how much simply having LeBron on your team boosts that value.

The real money for NBA owners is not made in year to year profits, but by increasing franchise value.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2018, 12:14:23 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.
LeBron is underpaid.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2018, 12:36:19 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.

It's not semantics, and Jim is entirely correct. It is exactly because Lebron makes the maximum that he is underpaid.

When people say "underpaid" (or "underpriced" generally) they mean relative to a market price. It's both well-known and basic economics that Lebron James would, in an open market, fetch much much more than what he's paid.

Lebron is underpaid in the exact same way a rent-controlled apartment is underpriced: there's a regulated maximum that keeps the market from setting the price.

The argument that teams would have negative profits if they signed him for his fair market value is flat wrong, as others have mentioned. He adds value to the asset (the team) that isn't immediately reflected in cash flow. And of course the team owners are smart enough to know what they could afford without losing money.


Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2018, 12:49:38 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.
LeBron is underpaid.

Yup. Almost by definition a max salary is going to make some guys underpaid, because there'd be no need for a max unless some players would make more without it.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2018, 01:46:43 PM »

Offline Erik

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What on earth are you guys talking about??

1) Franchise or company values are directly related to profits or expected profits. There are companies that have value with low or negative profit, but it's because they're expected to turn a profit in the future. If they don't, as they reach closer to bankruptcy, the value will begin to crash.

2) The correlation between profitability of a franchise has more to do with their respective markets (big city) and less to do with who plays there. If they paid LeBron James 60 million as you claim he's worth, the team would now be 70 mil in deficit next year instead of 40 mil they lost this year.

3) A big reason that there is a Salary cap is because they want to control costs. The teams cannot afford to pay LeBron James 60 million. They've come to a number that an average team that stays out of luxury can be profitable. If there's a team that gives LeBron the 60 mil you guys seem to think that he's worth and a bunch of scrubs and they never make the playoffs, that's not fun for people to watch and others will want to get paid that Much as well. Remove the full salary cap and Teams will go bankrupt to keep up with the billionaire owner who doesn't give a crap how much profit his team makes. That makes the sport figuratively unwatchable.

The salary maximum is the maximum that a team can pay a player, yield a reasonable team, and the team can turn a profit. If a company cannot afford to pay someone something, how can they possibly be underpaid in a both semantics sense and a realistic sense? The actuality is that LeBron is paid fairly and everyone else is some varying degree of overpaid. Or the team is not thinking in terms of running a successful business and more about pride of winning games. In that case one could say that LeBron is worth 1 billion if we don't factor in running a successful business

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2018, 01:50:22 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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JVG and Mark Jackson actually praised Horford for much of the game, and said his impact on this C's team is what made him an All-Star selection.

Yes, it was frustrating seeing him miss that bunny late, but if you're blaming the loss on Horford, then you're wrong. He still came away with 15 points, 13 rebounds.

Curry simply went OFF and you can't do much when he's sizzling. And for some stretches, when the bench was out there and Kyrie sat, they had a ton of trouble generating any sort of offense. Tatum and Morris combined to go 7-24 with Tatum also missing quite a few wide open shots late, and frankly Morris took some dumb contested shots late, but can't blame him entirely since he's our primary scorer off the bench.

But I'm honestly not upset at the loss, it was a fantastic game and that was a Warriors team we played on the road with Curry playing like that. Still only lost by 4, and were actually down just 1 point to them with 7 seconds left, so it was super close until the end.
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Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2018, 02:10:08 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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The salary maximum is the maximum that a team can pay a player, yield a reasonable team, and the team can turn a profit. If a company cannot afford to pay someone something, how can they possibly be underpaid in a both semantics sense and a realistic sense? The actuality is that LeBron is paid fairly and everyone else is some varying degree of overpaid. Or the team is not thinking in terms of running a successful business and more about pride of winning games. In that case one could say that LeBron is worth 1 billion if we don't factor in running a successful business

You clearly do not understand the reasoning behind max contracts.  It has nothing to do with the ability to turn a profit and much more to do with distributing salaries across varying talent levels.  The salary cap existed well before max salaries were instituted, and teams were free to pay individual players as much as they chose to.  Teams still turned profits under this model.

If max salaries didn't exist players like Lebron, Durant, ect. would make far more than they currently do.  Teams wouldn't be spending any more on player salaries than they currently do, they would simply have less money available to spend on other players, and would likely have a harder time fielding a truly competitive team.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2018, 02:23:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.
Actually the idea that the very best of the best players in the NBA who are on a max contract are underpaid is a very valid opinion and has been discussed as such for years. A simple google search will show that. Simply because they work within a system that limits their earnings doesn't mean they don't actually deserve more given everything they do for their team and because of the resale value they add to the team because they are on it.

I think its pretty fair to say that Lebron at the max is underpaid and that Horford at the max is fair.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2018, 02:27:11 PM »

Offline Erik

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The salary maximum is the maximum that a team can pay a player, yield a reasonable team, and the team can turn a profit. If a company cannot afford to pay someone something, how can they possibly be underpaid in a both semantics sense and a realistic sense? The actuality is that LeBron is paid fairly and everyone else is some varying degree of overpaid. Or the team is not thinking in terms of running a successful business and more about pride of winning games. In that case one could say that LeBron is worth 1 billion if we don't factor in running a successful business

You clearly do not understand the reasoning behind max contracts.  It has nothing to do with the ability to turn a profit and much more to do with distributing salaries across varying talent levels.  The salary cap existed well before max salaries were instituted, and teams were free to pay individual players as much as they chose to.  Teams still turned profits under this model.

If max salaries didn't exist players like Lebron, Durant, ect. would make far more than they currently do.  Teams wouldn't be spending any more on player salaries than they currently do, they would simply have less money available to spend on other players, and would likely have a harder time fielding a truly competitive team.

Please reread point 3 before accusing me of not understanding why there are caps.

The team cap is most definitely due to controlling costs. They even admit it. They have to keep teams profitable. They even give money to smaller market teams that can't remain profitable. Again, it has nothing to do with who is playing there. The Lakers and knicks make league record profits and their teams are trash. They cannot afford to have teams pay stars 60 million and yield competitive teams. And even if they did, wouldn't that make them still underpaid in your mind because the fifth best player is still making the same as the best? And if they remove the max team cap, LeBron is worth whatever someone is willing to write a check for. It doesn't mean that's his fair market value. If I pay $300 for a piece of bread it doesn't mean that's the going rate for it.

This is the way I look at it

In a game in which Al Horford and LeBron both get max money and are paid the same, he's overpaid.
But Al Horford is a top 30 player, so in a 30 team league, he deserves max money.

Blame the NBA contract situation, but Al Horford deserves the money in the current scheme.

That doesn't mean Horford is overpaid, it means that Lebron is criminally underpaid. Lebron would be a bargain at twice his salary, but they can't pay him that due to NBA rules.

May as well start saying that Jimmy Butler ($19.3 million) is overpaid because he makes more than Kawhi Leonard  ($18.9 million)

If you're going to argue semantics with me for God knows what reason, at least get it right. Someone cannot be underpaid if they make the maximum. The team has paid that person the maximum that they are allowed to. In a fair system, the best player makes the maximum and everyone else is paid less to a varying degree. If your point is that LeBron deserves more than 30 million dollars a year, your argument is even worse. Most teams make about 30 mil in profit a year. He equals that number. That's a massive overpay if I've ever seen one from business perspective.
Actually the idea that the very best of the best players in the NBA who are on a max contract are underpaid is a very valid opinion and has been discussed as such for years. A simple google search will show that. Simply because they work within a system that limits their earnings doesn't mean they don't actually deserve more given everything they do for their team and because of the resale value they add to the team because they are on it.

I think its pretty fair to say that Lebron at the max is underpaid and that Horford at the max is fair.

Ok I have a question for you guys. What is the fair market value for LeBron James? Remember that the Cavs are currently running a 40 mil deficit.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 03:00:41 PM by Erik »

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2018, 03:04:22 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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I think its pretty fair to say that Lebron at the max is underpaid and that Horford at the max is fair.

This.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2018, 03:17:25 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Players that drive ticket and jersey sales can be worth max on that alone.

The ability to draw other players on exception deals (over other teams with MLE) could indicate a player's max value.

Of course, being a first or second best player on a playoff team usually does it.

But the first to commit usually gets the sweetest deal. Al was the first big name talent to sign here on our roster. That itself assured he would get a premium, the max.

The thing to me is he doesn't have a take-over gear like you'd hope your big guns would have.

4 out of those 5 though. I'd rather have Durant, but Horford is a max guy.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2018, 03:26:30 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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And if they remove the max team cap, LeBron is worth whatever someone is willing to write a check for. It doesn't mean that's his fair market value. If I pay $300 for a piece of bread it doesn't mean that's the going rate for it.

A lot going on here but this is literally what fair market value is.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2018, 04:04:55 PM »

Offline Erik

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And if they remove the max team cap, LeBron is worth whatever someone is willing to write a check for. It doesn't mean that's his fair market value. If I pay $300 for a piece of bread it doesn't mean that's the going rate for it.

A lot going on here but this is literally what fair market value is.

A component of fair market value implies the individual is doing what's in his best interest. Me buying bread for that price isn't in my best interest. You cannot even begin to discuss "best interest" in terms of an investment until you look at the balance sheet (profits). Writing a blank check is not conducive to a good investment. Now, I've shown you an owner who is 40 mil in the hole each year. You want to double the deficit? Sure, go ahead. The valuation *will* drop. Not even close to the definition of best interest, especially for the league. All of these caps are perfectly calculated to extract the most amount of money for the players that the teams can afford and for all sides to live in harmony. Therefore, LeBron is making exactly the best money that he can make. It's the other guys who are overpaid.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2018, 04:47:31 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Having a player like Lebron drives ticket sales higher, It allows for ticket price increases. He is a major factor for jerseys, clothing, and other paraphrenalia sales increasing. He about guarantees a trip to the Finals and given a team makes about an extra $5-10 million per playoff home game, he is responsible for that extra sales revenue.

His contract is also the best player commodity a franchise can own. Having him under contract could drive up franchise value by hundreds of millions of dollars.

None of this is true for a max player like Horford. Therefore, Lebron is underpaid compared to another max player like Horford because of the extra revenue he creates and extra asset value he provides to the franchise.

Re: Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2018, 05:20:10 PM »

Offline spikelovetheCelts

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He is worth as much as Mike Conley. There are only a few players worth more than the Max. 5 maybe. Horford makes winning plays and is in the right place. He could be forced more in the offense.
He is worth a Max salary. His signing has led to where we are now. There is no KI or Hayward if Al is not on this team. He played Great last night. Threads like this make me not want to come here.
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