Al Horford has been mediocre. He doesnt deserve his salary

[PhoSita]

7 pts tonight.  Previously 2 other duds. Overall just not cutting it

He is expecting Kyrie to do most of the heavy lifting on the offensive end. Plus has been plain average on defense

What to do with this guy?  Maybe its time to consider trading him (and eat 50 cents on the dollar)

Trade for a cheaper option like Dedmon to take care of things around the paint

The original post 

In fairness, he's still expecting other people to do the heavy lifting on the offensive end. It's good for him that has worked out with Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. Heck, even Brad said we can't expect him to carry the team on his back offensively on a regular basis.

KG couldn't carry the Celts on offense on a regular basis, either.  He was worth a max deal, right?

Would you have given a max deal to Ben Wallace when he was in his prime?

Is Draymond Green worth a max deal?


I think a person's answers to questions like that say a lot about how they see the game of basketball.

You're kidding, right? Let's just say you probably want to think about that again.

KG peaked at 18.8 ppg for the Celts in 2008 and never led the team in scoring for a regular season. He led the team in scoring during the 2012 playoffs but still scored less than 20 ppg.

He was never a go-to scoring option for an extended period of time. He had good scoring games but he was not going to go out and score 25-30 ppg for a series or whatever.

Despite that, KG was hugely valuable.

Horford, for reference, is averaging 18 points per game in these playoffs.

[Big333223]

KG peaked at 18.8 ppg for the Celts in 2008 and never led the team in scoring for a regular season. He led the team in scoring during the 2012 playoffs but still scored less than 20 ppg.

He was never a go-to scoring option for an extended period of time. He had good scoring games but he was not going to go out and score 25-30 ppg for a series or whatever.

Despite that, KG was hugely valuable.

Horford, for reference, is averaging 18 points per game in these playoffs.

It's also true that KG was capable of scoring more than he did in Boston. He averaged 21+ for 8 seasons in Minnesota. Horford's career high is 18.6 and he only avergaed more than 15.3 ppg twice in his career.

In Boston, KG averaged between 18.8 and 14.3 ppg as the third option. There's no doubt that if he was ever asked to score more points he could have. Not 30 but 20 for sure. Horford, with the Celtics has averaged 14.0 and 12.9 ppg with a lot of the offense running through him.

Horford averaging 18 ppg in this playoffs has been great. But he's still not as aggressive of a scorer as KG was.

[PhoSita]

In Boston, KG averaged between 18.8 and 14.3 ppg as the third option. There's no doubt that if he was ever asked to score more points he could have. Not 30 but 20 for sure. Horford, with the Celtics has averaged 14.0 and 12.9 ppg with a lot of the offense running through him.

Horford averaging 18 ppg in this playoffs has been great. But he's still not as aggressive of a scorer as KG was.

I do have doubts about that, actually.  I remember clearly that KG was reluctant to be a go-to scoring option, didn't want to carry that load.  Preferred to be a complementary offensive player and focus his energies on being a leader on defense.

Even when he was the top scorer for the team, during the 2012 playoffs, he scored fewer than 20 points per game.

We can quibble over what "carry the team on offense" means, but scoring in the mid to high teens is not that, in my mind.


It's true that KG was capable of being a lead scoring option earlier in his career, but that's not who he was in Boston.  Particularly not after the 07-08 season. 

Yet I think we would all agree he was 100% worth whatever the Celts had to pay him to play for them during the 09 season (when he was healthy) and in 2010, 2011, and 2012.  He was the heart and soul of that team and he was clutch on offense when he needed to be, even if he wasn't a guy who could "carry the team" on that end.


Horford, I submit, is similar to that version of KG in a lot of ways.  If there's a gap in how "aggressive" the offense is between this version of Horford and 09-12 KG, I think it has more to do with how the Celts' offense is constructed than with any lack of determination or grit on Al's part.

[kozlodoev]

Horford, I submit, is similar to that version of KG in a lot of ways.  If there's a gap in how "aggressive" the offense is between this version of Horford and 09-12 KG, I think it has more to do with how the Celts' offense is constructed than with any lack of determination or grit on Al's part.

The problem with this argument is that he was the best player in Atlanta for years, and his scoring has always been ho-hum. I also remember a couple of particularly spectacular fizzles of those Atlanta teams that expected to hop on Horford's back against the Celtics. That's Horford. That's who he was in Atlanta, that's who he is in Boston, that's who everyone who pays attention knows him to be (including the Celtics brass).

There are no parallels between Garnett deferring to the likes of Allen and Pierce, and Horford being unable to establish himself as a reliable second option over two guys with a total of 3 years of NBA experience.

[PhoSita]

Horford, I submit, is similar to that version of KG in a lot of ways.  If there's a gap in how "aggressive" the offense is between this version of Horford and 09-12 KG, I think it has more to do with how the Celts' offense is constructed than with any lack of determination or grit on Al's part.

The problem with this argument is that he was the best player in Atlanta for years, and his scoring has always been ho-hum. I also remember a couple of particularly spectacular fizzles of those Atlanta teams that expected to hop on Horford's back against the Celtics. That's Horford. That's who he was in Atlanta, that's who he is in Boston, that's who everyone who pays attention knows him to be (including the Celtics brass).

There are no parallels between Garnett deferring to the likes of Allen and Pierce, and Horford being unable to establish himself as a reliable second option over two guys with a total of 3 years of NBA experience.

I don't see how any of that matters to what I'm saying.  The point is, KG was a mid-to-high teens scorer during his time on the Celts.  He was not asked to be a primary scoring option nor did he display any particular desire to be one.  Nonetheless he provided immense value in his two-way role.  He provided timely and clutch scoring, and occasionally went back in time to create some tough baskets for himself. 

Obviously that was a version of KG much diminished from where he was in the past.  Horford has never been anywhere close to what KG was in his prime.  But post-prime KG was still very much a max-worthy player, and prime-Horford is reminiscent of that player in some respects, particularly offensively (and his elite three point shooting is something KG never developed).

[Big333223]

Horford, I submit, is similar to that version of KG in a lot of ways.  If there's a gap in how "aggressive" the offense is between this version of Horford and 09-12 KG, I think it has more to do with how the Celts' offense is constructed than with any lack of determination or grit on Al's part.

The problem with this argument is that he was the best player in Atlanta for years, and his scoring has always been ho-hum. I also remember a couple of particularly spectacular fizzles of those Atlanta teams that expected to hop on Horford's back against the Celtics. That's Horford. That's who he was in Atlanta, that's who he is in Boston, that's who everyone who pays attention knows him to be (including the Celtics brass).

There are no parallels between Garnett deferring to the likes of Allen and Pierce, and Horford being unable to establish himself as a reliable second option over two guys with a total of 3 years of NBA experience.

I don't see how any of that matters to what I'm saying.  The point is, KG was a mid-to-high teens scorer during his time on the Celts.  He was not asked to be a primary scoring option nor did he display any particular desire to be one.  Nonetheless he provided immense value in his two-way role.  He provided timely and clutch scoring, and occasionally went back in time to create some tough baskets for himself. 

Obviously that was a version of KG much diminished from where he was in the past.  Horford has never been anywhere close to what KG was in his prime.  But post-prime KG was still very much a max-worthy player, and prime-Horford is reminiscent of that player in some respects, particularly offensively (and his elite three point shooting is something KG never developed).

I agree with your conclusion that Horford is definitely worth a max for his two-way contributions (three-way, if you count everything he does off the court) but I think the comparison between his offense and KG's offense is a stretch. First because of what their careers were pior to Boston and second, because KG scored more as a third option (every year he was here) than Horford has as the team's ostensible 2nd option (either of his seasons here).

[MattyIce]

j

[SparzWizard]

10 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 turnovers tonight with a Celtics loss.

Overpaid right? Trade him right? 

[Moranis]

Horford, I submit, is similar to that version of KG in a lot of ways.  If there's a gap in how "aggressive" the offense is between this version of Horford and 09-12 KG, I think it has more to do with how the Celts' offense is constructed than with any lack of determination or grit on Al's part.

The problem with this argument is that he was the best player in Atlanta for years, and his scoring has always been ho-hum. I also remember a couple of particularly spectacular fizzles of those Atlanta teams that expected to hop on Horford's back against the Celtics. That's Horford. That's who he was in Atlanta, that's who he is in Boston, that's who everyone who pays attention knows him to be (including the Celtics brass).

There are no parallels between Garnett deferring to the likes of Allen and Pierce, and Horford being unable to establish himself as a reliable second option over two guys with a total of 3 years of NBA experience.

I don't see how any of that matters to what I'm saying.  The point is, KG was a mid-to-high teens scorer during his time on the Celts.  He was not asked to be a primary scoring option nor did he display any particular desire to be one.  Nonetheless he provided immense value in his two-way role.  He provided timely and clutch scoring, and occasionally went back in time to create some tough baskets for himself. 

Obviously that was a version of KG much diminished from where he was in the past.  Horford has never been anywhere close to what KG was in his prime.  But post-prime KG was still very much a max-worthy player, and prime-Horford is reminiscent of that player in some respects, particularly offensively (and his elite three point shooting is something KG never developed).

I agree with your conclusion that Horford is definitely worth a max for his two-way contributions (three-way, if you count everything he does off the court) but I think the comparison between his offense and KG's offense is a stretch. First because of what their careers were pior to Boston and second, because KG scored more as a third option (every year he was here) than Horford has as the team's ostensible 2nd option (either of his seasons here).

KG led the Celtics in shots his first year in Boston. He then dropped to 3rd for a few seasons before going up to 2nd Allen's final season and again finishing 2nd his final season in town.  Even during the years he was 3rd on shots a game he wasn't far behind Allen and Pierce. He also generally had a higher usage than Allen.  I guess I'm saying is that KG was very much the 2nd option being Pierce

[rondofan1255]

Love/TT vs. Horford time   

[Phantom255x]

Generally speaking, Love has usually dominated Horford when CLE plays against him (from his Atlanta days to now). Thompson to an extent as well in terms of grabbing boards.

Hopefully Horford shuts up the critics this time around! 

[Sophomore]

Generally speaking, Love has usually dominated Horford when CLE plays against him (from his Atlanta days to now). Thompson to an extent as well in terms of grabbing boards.

Hopefully Horford shuts up the critics this time around! 

This falls in the sad-but-true category. Come on, playoff Al!!

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Generally speaking, Love has usually dominated Horford when CLE plays against him (from his Atlanta days to now). Thompson to an extent as well in terms of grabbing boards.

Hopefully Horford shuts up the critics this time around! 

This falls in the sad-but-true category. Come on, playoff Al!!

In the first two series, the Cs need Al to score more, taking advantage when other teams go small against him (Giannis, Saric, Illyasova, Maker, etc.).

This series will likely be different. I'd expect Horford to mainly match up with Love and Thompson. Horford can score some in those matchups, but they aren't mismatches. If the Cavs go small with Green, Hood, or James at the 4, then Horford should go into the post.

I think this series is more about Al's facilitating. We need him passing and screening to free up Tatum, Rozier, Brown, and Smart. We need him to assist those other guys and help them take advantage of a porous Cavs perimeter defense.

[slamtheking]

Generally speaking, Love has usually dominated Horford when CLE plays against him (from his Atlanta days to now). Thompson to an extent as well in terms of grabbing boards.

Hopefully Horford shuts up the critics this time around! 

This falls in the sad-but-true category. Come on, playoff Al!!

to be fair to Al, he hasn't had the likes of Baynes, Morris or Monroe to share the front court with him.  KO didn't exactly offer up tough, physical defense or rebounding.  I suspect a different result on the boards for the C's this time around.

[kozlodoev]

Generally speaking, Love has usually dominated Horford when CLE plays against him (from his Atlanta days to now). Thompson to an extent as well in terms of grabbing boards.

Hopefully Horford shuts up the critics this time around! 

This falls in the sad-but-true category. Come on, playoff Al!!

to be fair to Al, he hasn't had the likes of Baynes, Morris or Monroe to share the front court with him.  KO didn't exactly offer up tough, physical defense or rebounding.  I suspect a different result on the boards for the C's this time around.

I don't think we'll see a lot of Monroe  this series. Perhaps to match with Thompson, in spurts.

I'm curious whether we'll start Morris on LeBron, or put Baynes on Love and try Horford on LeBron. The latter is a bit of a longshot, but I'm not sure that Morris is the LBJ stopper that everyone makes him out to be.